In a Charred Landscape, a Green Idea Gets a Fire-Resistant Opportunity

» AN50 on 04.11.09 @ 09:28 AM

That design is sure going to get a lot of mold built up inside without proper venting.
The occupants will get sick.

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» Stitch it up on 04.12.09 @ 03:16 PM

Don’t blame developers for ugly affordable housing.

Blame the vote sucking politicians who forced them to be built.

There’s plenty of affordable housing now all over the South Coast.

There’s no reason in the world why Santa Barbara needs its own housing projects.

And while they’re at it, they should drive the bums out of town too. . . .

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» Realist on 04.12.09 @ 08:22 PM

Oh yes, please give me a tiny little shoebox that’s really what people want and need… just like we all want those tiny itty bitty death traps called hybrids. Where’s the tiny little garage for this thing? Get real. I’m sure it won’t be long before there is a limit on your house size by the enviro-fascists..oh oops my greed is showing. Let me inhale a little bit so I don’t take up so much space. Wait maybe I can do with a little bit less oxygen… I suppose I could just wait and take every other breath. I wonder what the new owner thinks of this “gift”? Gee, thanks comes to mind - maybe I can save up for a tool shed that is twice the size?

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» A fine example, in limited cases on 04.13.09 @ 01:42 PM

Perhaps “Less is more” would like to comment on the sustainability of building houses several hundred feet above sea level on hillsides?  It would be hard to imagine a healthier community resulting from building small houses in outlying areas where mobility is all but restricted with cars.  Farmers’ market = car.  School = car.  Dinner out = car.

I applaud the home’s design features, and the size is reasonable but functional given a small family in a climate like ours.  Mold would likely not be a significant issue given their design materials and ventilation available (the house would still vent). 

And lastly, to “Realist,” the Prius has a better crash test rating than most cars:

http://www.automotive.com/2009/12/toyota/prius/crash-tests/index.html

And your bitterness offers nothing other than sounding scary….

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» ummmm on 04.14.09 @ 10:02 AM

I think they should be so lucky getting this house.  They are “renters” , and not owners, so they can move if they don’t like it.  Playing it up like they own the house single mom and daughter left with nothing…. joke. People taking advantage here.

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» size on 04.14.09 @ 12:16 PM

is that a size of a double car garage?

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» Not meet high fire requirements on 04.15.09 @ 09:19 AM

The exposed porch rafters appear to be 2 by 8 in the photo in the News Press today .

The city high fire requirements require that exposed rafters be 4 by 6 in size. (in order to not catch on fire so easily)

Therefore this house is in violation of the city high fire hazard ordinance, and will not pass city inspection, if the city inspectors know their stuff.

Too bad the architect who designed it, and the contractor who built it don’t know he high fire hazard code.

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» Ms. Green on 04.16.09 @ 07:17 AM

I am glad to see so much interest around this story.  As the green resources manager at Allen Associates, I wanted to respond specifically to the comments about the potential for mold growth in this house.  Many homes that were lost during the Tea Fire did not burn during the initial fire storm.  Rather, they burned because burning embers were blown into their attic, into their ducts, or into their basement/crawl space, where they continued to smolder and eventually burned down the house.  This house is designed to avoid this ever happening in the future.  First, we are using a spray foam insulation and cathedral ceilings.  There is no attic.  And, because this spray foam insulation acts as an air barrier, there is no need for roof vents (by code).  Second, we are installing specially designed fire resistant foundation vents to vent the crawl space.  These vents have a baffle system that prevents wind blown, burning embers from being blown into the crawl space. This house will not only be fire resistant, but very healthy for the OWNERS (not renters) that will be moving into this house.

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» reply to Ms Green on 04.16.09 @ 06:13 PM

How about the 2 by 8 exposed rafters in the porch?
This is a violation of the high fire hazard ordinance.

And when the roof leaks and the wood roof framing members get wet and mold starts to grow in the roof framing , you have no ventilation of the roof framing members to dry them out and prevent mold growth.

So this is going to b a very very unhealthy house for the occupants to live in. .

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» Response to Response to Ms. Green from Ms. Green on 04.18.09 @ 03:07 PM

The porch rafters, which are 4x8, meet the fire code.

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» reply to "observer of this construction" on 04.18.09 @ 04:34 PM

Just because foam insulation is permeable will not stop mold growth.

When there is a roof water leak this will soak into the wood roof framing rafters and plywood and mold will grow.    The only way to stop mold growth is to provide ventilation air to the underside of the roof wood decking and to the wood roof rafters.

Permeable insulation will not provide the required amount of air flow to stop mold.  It is a fact that it takes a minimum of an inch of air space between the insulation and the wood wood decking and wood roof framing members and which is connected at the top and bottom to vents that open to the outdoors, to prevent mold from growing.

No matter what you wrongly think is a fact that the way this house is designed and built will allow mold to grow on the underside of the roof plywood in event of a roof leak, and make the occupants very sick.

P.S.  The system used does NOT meet the code as there is simply no adequate ventilation provided to the roof wood deck and framing members.

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» reply to DJ on 04.19.09 @ 07:18 PM

O.k. DJ you win this point.
A non ventilated attic meets code.

But consider this fact:— over the last 20 years thousands of homes have been built that met the code but got mold that made it’s residents very sick.

So it a fact that just meeting the code does not stop mold!  This means the code is faulty.

Here is how it works.

1. Moisture in the form of water vapor is add to the inside air, not from the outside, but from the inside due to numerous sources such as people perspiration, taking showers or bathing, washing hands, washing dishes, washing clothes, drying clothes. cooking, water from pet water bowls, aquariums,  humidifiers, steam vaporizers.

2. the green houses are so tight that there is not enough ventilation air to remove the water vapor.

2. The spray foam is permeable to water vapor and air so the humid air and water vapor moves through the foam insulation.  Water vapor travels from high water vapor ( inside the house) to low water vapor inside the foam insulation and in the wood roof structure. .

3. Water vapor in air condenses into water at the dew point which in Santa Barbara is around 55 degrees.  I the winter when it is below 55 degrees the back of the wood roof decking is at 55 degrees as it has no insulation to keep in heat.  So the water vapor which travels right through the spray foam insulation condenses into water on the back of the wood roof decking which is at or below the 55 degree dew point.

( this condensation at the dew point is exactly the same as when one takes a shower in the winter and water vapor in the humid room air condenses on the windows. also, it is the same as when one takes a cold drink out of the refrigerator and puts it in a glass and the outside, and bottom, of the glass gets water from the condensation of the water vapor in the air.

4. There is no ventilation to get rid of the water because there is no air space on the cold side of the roof insulation. 

4. Mold, which is often toxic,  grows on this moist wood wit the two necessary ingredients of water and a food source -the wood.

5.  The mold spores, which are often toxic,  work their way back into the house.

6. The occupants sometimes get very very sick, even die,  from toxic mold.

7. The design of this house served the function of making it very air tight but it is this very air tight function which allows mold to grow and make occupants sick,

8. It is a well documented fact that green energy efficient houses, even though meeting the code, actually have significantly MORE mold in them than conventional houses which have much more natural ventilation due to all the air leaks.

German architects know this and have come up with the only possible solution to the mold problem in air tight houses. They always install a air to air heat exchanger fan which constantly exhausts humid air from within the house and replaces it with fresh outdoor air and the heat exchanger transfers the heat from the exhausted air to the incoming fresh outdoor air.  The German architects have found that this is the ONLKY way to prevent significant mold from growing in tight energy efficient houses.

Now you can choose to ignore this factual reality but that will not stop mold from growing in tight energy efficient houses.  I hope you designers of these tight energy efficient houses using this spray foam, without the needed 1 inch of air ventilation air space above it,  have a whole lot of liability insurance as you are sure going to need it. 

An architect friend of mine and the contractor, of a new air tight house like this one, both sued last year because of mold and lost and each got a $500,000 judgement against them.  And the occupant ended up getting very very sick from the toxic mold and almost died. .  It was stachybotrys mold—the worst type of toxic mold.  The house needed over $300,000 in rebuilding to correct the moisture problems and sat vacant for over a year.

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» reply to David James on 04.23.09 @ 03:14 PM

You are wrong, my friend.
You talk like you know it all, but I have a news flash for you: YOU DON’T!!

it is a fact that Icynene spray foam insulation is an open cell insulation and it is not air impermeable. the fact is that it is both permeable to air and to water vapor due to it being open cell instead of closed cell.  You have a lot to learn!

And therefore water vapor will travel right through it and condense on the wood roof deck which will be at or below the dew point.

And why did you give the example with a 60% relative humidity for Santa Barbara.  No house in Santa Barbara ever has a 60% relative humidity but varies during the year between 50% and 30%.

And your comment about vapor barrier had nothing to do with the point of how water is going to condense on the inside of the wood roof deck and cause mold to grow,

The fact is that with no air space next to the wood to allowed to dry it will, continue to remain wet and so mold will grow.

But where you are the most wrong is your faulty statement: “The moisture gain by the wood sheathing is below the level where performance problems would occur. “

Now just what do you base this faulty statement on.  You don’t have a clue as to the amount of moisture on the inside surface of the wood and whether or not is enough for mold to grow.
I happen to know that it is enough moisture for mold to grow.

And lastly did no know that asphalt roofing shingle manufactures say that the warranty is only good if there is air space directly below the wood roof deck, and if there is insulation, like yours, directly below the wood rood deck that this insulation prevents he wood deck and the shingles from cooling and the hotter temperatures resulting will make the shingles and roofing only last half as many years.

lastly the manufacture of Icynene appears to misrepresent to the public that there is no gas or odors given off.  the fact is that nationwide hundreds of people who have installed this insulation could not occupy the building for days and says until the odors ( which made them sick) went away. man people have had to remove the insulation after it was installed as they could not stand the odor.

You sell this product so you are biased and you don’t ant to admit the serious shortcomings of this product.  And you have a lot to learn about mold and the proper ventilation of buildings.

The only true thing you said was that building insulated with Icynene need continuous mechanical ventilation—but this green house, and 99% of the others, don’t have such a continuous operating ventilation system, and so will get mold and male people very sick. 

Since I want to remain healthy, I would never install Icynene spray foam insulation.

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