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Lou Cannon: Can Jerry Brown Rekindle California Dream?
More than six decades ago, social critic Carey McWilliams defined California as a mercurial “great exception” among the states in the rapidity of its growth. After bursting into American consciousness with the Gold Rush of 1849, California built cities and ports and railroads and advertised itself to the world. Elsewhere in the United States, wrote McWilliams, the tempo of development began slowly and gradually accelerated, “but in California, the lights went on all at once, in a blaze and they have never been dimmed.”
How nostalgic these words sound now. Recurrent recessions, a housing collapse, crumbling infrastructure and a decline in educational opportunities have eroded public confidence and dimmed the lights in many corners of California. The ebullient sense of forward motion that pervaded the Golden State in the heady aftermath of World War II, when McWilliams wrote California: The Great Exception, is a distant memory. The optimism was in many ways a byproduct of the war, when California was discovered anew by servicemen who embarked to the Pacific and defense workers who came to work in airplane and munitions factories. Dazzled by California’s blue skies, rolling beaches and easy ways, one newcomer gushed to Life magazine: “Mister, this is Dreamland.”
After the war, California rushed to fulfill the dream. It built new colleges and expanded others for veterans suddenly able to afford higher education because of the G.I. Bill of Rights. Developers bulldozed orchards and replaced them with houses, roads and schools. By 1964, California had become — and remains — the most populous U.S. state. It was a nation-state with a budget that exceeded all but a half-dozen countries in the world, at once an agricultural cornucopia, a concrete matrix of interlocking freeways and a global leader in science and technology with world-class universities and a far-flung array of state and community colleges that were the envy of the country. Spurred by the Cold War, the aerospace industry flourished. During the apogee of California’s development when Democrat Pat Brown was governor from 1959 through 1965, voters at his urging approved the construction of a gigantic aqueduct, visible from space, to transport water from the abundant north to the parched south. For a time, anything seemed possible in California, which appeared to hold the nation’s future in its hands.
Inevitably, however, California began to choke on what McWilliams had called its only constant: “rapid, revolutionary growth.” The skies became less blue and the beaches and freeways more congested. As commutes lengthened and taxes and regulations increased, life in California became stressful. Racial and ethnic tensions rose. Watts rioted. University students rebelled. Farm workers organized. Brown was defeated in 1966 by rising Republican star Ronald Reagan, a former movie actor who had emigrated from Iowa three decades earlier to pursue his Hollywood dreams. Reagan looked askance at government but was astute enough in forward-looking California to refrain from practicing too much of what he preached. Among other things, Reagan signed into law the largest tax increase that had ever been levied in any state and expanded an extensive system of public parks.
California’s tipping point came in 1978, when Reagan was out of office and pursuing the presidency and Brown’s son, Jerry, was governor. The younger Brown was then an apostle of limited government, expressed as “small is beautiful.” He was creative but unfocused — and out of touch. He didn’t realize that many Californians, especially those with fixed retirement income, were in danger of losing their homes because of soaring local property taxes, which rose with every assessment. Brown and the Legislature were sitting on a huge state surplus they could have used for property tax relief. Instead, they ignored the angry homeowners, who turned to the ballot box and approved an initiative known as Proposition 13. The measure capped property taxes and kept many Californians in their homes. But it also put a cap on California’s future by requiring a two-thirds vote to raise taxes — even though Prop. 13 did not itself achieve this threshold.
California has been struggling ever since. The state took a heavy hit in the early 1990s when the aerospace industry imploded and another a decade later when the dot.com boom collapsed. Just when California was climbing to its feet, the Great Recession struck the overblown housing market with seismic ferocity. From 2005 to 2009 California lost 600,000 jobs, many of them in housing construction and related businesses. Few of these jobs have been regained. California’s unemployment rate in February was 10.9 percent, third highest in the nation. State and local government revenues collapsed during the recession, prompting heavy cutbacks in education spending. Seven million Californians lack health insurance and nearly a quarter of the state’s children are in poverty. A Legislature that in the mid-20th century was known for its professionalism became dysfunctional, perennially balancing the budget with gimmicks that kicked the can down the road while failing to address underlying structural problems.
But help could be on the way in the unlikely form of an older and wiser Jerry Brown. As California’s youngest governor during the two terms he served from 1975 through 1983, Brown flitted from issue to issue, earning the sobriquet of “Governor Moonbeam” from columnist Mike Royko. Times — and Brown — have changed. Brown matured and learned the ropes of hands-on governance during two terms as mayor of Oakland, a gritty city across the bay from San Francisco. He was elected governor again in 2010 and recently celebrated his 74th birthday. Governor Moonbeam no longer, Brown sounded like his father last year as he extolled the virtues of education and pushed through the Legislature the California Dream Act, enabling illegal immigrants who were brought to the United States before they were 16 to receive financial assistance for higher education.
Now, Brown is trying to close the state’s multibillion-dollar state budget gap with an initiative on the November ballot that would raise the sales tax by a quarter cent and increase state income tax rates on those making more than $250,000 a year. Some business groups are grumbling about the tax hikes, and Republicans oppose them. Nonetheless, a USC/Los Angeles Times poll found that 64 percent of Californians favor Brown’s plan. These voters seem responsive to Brown’s plea that education cutbacks imperil the state’s future. California’s two university systems have raised tuitions and limited enrollments. The community college system, crucial for working-class students, has also increased fees and in some cases eliminated courses needed for graduation.
Stephen Levy, who directs the Center for Continuing Study of the California Economy, believes that the gap between rich and poor will grow without a tax increase.
“Presently, there are two Californias, one of which is prospering and the other which isn’t,” Levy told me.
The prosperous ones, on the whole, are those who make a living in technology, trade or tourism. But Californians who depend for their livelihood on the housing market or inter-related industries, from financial services to furniture manufacturing, are hurting. Levy said the Brown initiative would raise half the revenue California needs to balance its budget and that the continuing recovery should do the rest.
Not everyone agrees. Bill Hauck, former president of the California Business Roundtable, believes that increased revenues from higher taxes won’t help much unless Brown and, even more important, the Democratic-controlled Legislature curb their appetite for spending. Hauck is also skeptical of polls showing the Brown initiative a slam dunk at the ballot box. Historically, measures that raise taxes on the wealthy have attracted well-funded and effective opposition.
But Brown seems determined to lead California back to its glory days when it spent unstintingly on education and development, and his plan has some surprise backers. The Los Angeles Times editorially called Brown’s initiative “a realistic plan.” In Sacramento, lobbyist George Steffes, no fan of Brown’s earlier governorship, said he is doing better this time around. More than four decades ago Steffes was legislative liaison for Reagan when he signed his historic $1 billion tax increase — $6.8 billion in today’s dollars. In those days, Steffes said, governors and legislators came together in crises and did their best for California.
“The old guys did pretty well, and Brown’s an old guy now,” Steffes said.
Economist Stephen Levy, in a view shared by many others, believes the future of California will be written by young people, many of them Latino or Asian, who are now attending increasingly under-funded elementary and high schools and junior colleges. Perhaps Jerry Brown, the old guy who remembers how it used to be, can help the young Californians to keep the lights on in the Golden State.
— Summerland resident Lou Cannon is a longtime national political writer and acclaimed presidential biographer. His most recent book — co-authored with his son, Carl — is Reagan’s Disciple: George W. Bush’s Troubled Quest for a Presidential Legacy. Cannon also is an editorial adviser to State Net Capitol Journal, which published this column originally.
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» on 04.18.12 @ 03:03 PM
Great piece Lou, although I’m a bit surprised you didn’t also mention Gov. Brown’s 12-point public employee pension reform plan (http://gov.ca.gov/docs/Twelve_Point_Pension_Reform_10.27.11.pdf) which, if passed along with the tax proposals, truly may bring California back to it’s glory days.
I think many people are surprised and impressed with the job Jerry Brown is doing this time around. He’s doing a far better job than Ah-nold or Gray Davis, that is certain.
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» on 04.18.12 @ 04:51 PM
California state per capita tax revenue is #12 out of 50 states, yet it’s spending on k-12 per student education is dead last.
California does not need more taxes, we need to change the way we spend money. Less on prisons, less on pensions, less social services, more education.
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» on 04.18.12 @ 08:22 PM
The tax increases are destroying Calif, as it did with him in 1978 and its worse today. The Democrats have turned Calif into the welfare state, and those of us who work need to rebel quickly.
Brown stole from the highway tax, and put it into government unions general fund to balance his phony budget in his first two terms. He is a union puppet..Now he projected a new 4 Billion dollar increase in revenue that fell far short in his new smoke and mirrors budget this term—Liar-Loser!!
Brown is a liberal tax and waste Democrat, end of story.
Vote the liberals out and save the state. Or move if you actually work for a living!!!
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» on 04.18.12 @ 11:32 PM
This increase in the marginal tax brackets will give us the dubious honor of having the highest tax rates in the country. We will see how much additional revenue is realized from this Brown/public employee union negotiated tax plan. Of course, the public employee unions are supporting this boondoggle, given that they are spared most of the pain it will inflict on our rapidly disintegrating laughingstock of a state.
While we contemplate the fiscal calamity staring down at us, get your mind around this statistic: 32% of all welfare recipients in the US are in California.
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» on 04.19.12 @ 09:25 AM
Jerry is wrong once again and Cannon misses the biggest point. Reagan’s high taxes came at a time of unprecedented economic expansion just as senior Brown’s did. We are in an accelerating contraction people, which is the absolute worst time to increase government spending, taxation and engage in this Keynesian ponzi scheme of borrow and spend.
Its pretty simple really, whether you are a leftist socialist big government economic redistribution progressive liberal, or a conservative Ann Ryan laissez-faire capitalist, in order to spend more, pay down debt and elevate the living standard of society you need to MAKE MORE THAN YOU CONSUME. With the exit of oil development, aerospace, and much of our high tech manufacturing, California is now the biggest consumer of net wealth with the worst wealth production. Can anyone say Greece?
California has dropped from the 6th largest economy in the world to number 8 and that contraction is accelerating. Reagan’s high tax rate just sent the wealthy packing, using our fair state as a vacation retreat instead of a permanent residence. It forced small and medium sized companies to pass the tax along to consumers or fold to large corporations. Once again the anti-rich, class warfare, chip on their shoulder, envious whiners shot themselves in the foot chasing the successful away trying in vein to punish them for being better than they.
What Moonbeam needs to do is cut the size and scope of the state government in a radical way, like by 50%. He needs to reduce the tax rates across the board, open up oil development and put the welcome mat out for manufacturing. Doing that he will see the demographic trend reverse over night, instead of watching the wealth generating capacity fleeing, being replaced by wealth consumers and parasites, the parasites will scatter like cockroaches looking for some other state to mooch off of while those interested in building, creating and generating will storm the border trying to get in.
Once the balance sheet is in the black and we are once again a net producer of wealth, then and only then can we think about growing government, building infrastructure and nanny coddling the population.
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» on 04.19.12 @ 09:55 AM
California is in the doldrums for two primary reasons:
A) Lavish social services for immigrants. For example, a Mexican or other non-American who moves to Santa Barbara and has four children will be entitled to:
1)$2000+ a month in subsidized housing via Section 8 and/or local housing projects (e.g. Santa Barbara County Housing Authority)
2)Up to $1,000 in food stamps benefits (up to $200 per family member/month)
3)Full Medi-Cal coverage for all family members under the age of 18 (this costs a LOT of money)
4)Numerous other federal, state, and local subsidies (free utilities, free tax services….the list goes on and on).
B) Overpaid government employees.
1) Public safety officers can retire at age 50 with 90% of their final years pay, indexed for inflation, for life.
2) Most non-public safety officers can retire at age 55 with 75% of their final years pay.
BOTTOM LINE: California’s fiscal policies the past 30 years have been very friendly to low-income immigrants and to government employees; everyone else has kinda been screwed, which explains why, despite the lovely weather, tens of thousands of residents are still fleeing the state every year for more taxpayer-friendly places.
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» on 04.19.12 @ 10:03 AM
“But Brown seems determined to lead California back to its glory days when it spent unstintingly on education and development…”
—See, that’s just the point. California used to spend on education and development. Now it spends money on public employee retirement pensions.
In some jurisdictions, over HALF the fiscal budgets in some departments now go to fund to retired workers. That means that LESS THAN HALF the budget is going towards vital services—the other half is being spent on retired employees. Check out the City of San Jose for just one sad example of this.
Yes, it truly is this terrible.
It is a catastrophe.
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» on 04.20.12 @ 05:11 PM
“...envious whiners shot themselves in the foot chasing the successful away TRYING IN VEIN TO PUNISH THEM FOR BEING BETTER THAN THEY”.
If I’m reading this correctly, it speaks volumes. To me this confirms the attitude of the “haves” toward the “have-nots”: That the “haves” are by definition “better”. That’s a very, very sad and ill-informed view of the world.
If the legacy of that mindset is ‘nearly a quarter of the state’s kids living in poverty’ as Cannon states, then I fear for the future indeed.
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» on 04.23.12 @ 11:41 AM
If Brown’s plan passes you will see a continued outflow of business and wealth out of CA. We used to lead the nation every year in new business creation. In 2010 we were dead last in the nation, we lost like a net 4800 businesses. You have to try pretty hard to chase people out of a place with perfect climate and natural beauty but we’ve managed to do so.
We have ranked for the last few years the most unfriendly state for business. Raising taxes on the “wealthy”, defined as >$250K a year, will simply chase more wealth out of CA. About 60K taxpayers pay nearly half of the income taxes in this state now. Think of that, 60K people out of over 30M pay half of the taxes. That is a recipe for disaster. Many of those 60K can leave and will and take their money and jobs with them.
Spending is the problem. Unfunded pension liabilities are the problem. Over regulation is the problem. High cost of doing business is the problem. We have one third of the nation’s welfare cases and 15% of the population. Brown’s plan does very little to address these structural issues. It’s a band-aid on a hemorrhaging artery.
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» on 04.24.12 @ 11:16 AM
WTF, you have it wrong. The envious whiners are mostly wealthy white liberals and brother they have plenty. I didn’t say anything about them being the “have nots”. I am a have not but consider my self successful. What you read was what was drilled into you by a class warfare propaganda machine. Until you get your head out of the fog you will continue to be their stooge.
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» on 04.24.12 @ 11:52 AM
Well, Reagan’s tax increases were in 1967, 1970, 1971, and 1972. We were in a recession in 1970, but I guess I’m just grumpy and old and remember the details.
I love to see Carey McWilliams quoted… one of his major points was that lots of unexpected bonanzas saved California again and again, and consequently true reform couldn’t take hold. So we have a messed up and antiquated State government. Maybe we’ve never really fixed it.
And his point was the State government kept having to respond to external circumstances created by explosive growth, and never had time to settle down. We add something like a North Dakota every year in population. North Dakota has time to catch its breath. We don’t.
I really don’t care if rich people leave California… let them… there is more than enough talent and innovation to replace them. And I’m happy if the old companies with super low property tax assessments move away.
All the gloom and doomers, feel free to move to North Dakota or Arizona anytime… one less car on our freeways.
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» on 04.24.12 @ 12:34 PM
WSJ just ran a great story similar to Lou’s here:
“The Great California Exodus”
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304444604577340531861056966.html
The gist of the article is that California is still a wonderful place to live, as long as you don’t want you to raise a family.
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» on 04.24.12 @ 01:11 PM
p,
our taxes are already almost the highest in the country now. We were promised after the last tax increase that the budget would balance and schools would be saved. It didn’t work, we still have huge deficits, huge unfunded pension liabilities and the schools are broke. Now they are back telling us the same thing again, just agree to raise your taxes again and all will be well. Why would you expect different results? They aren’t dealing with any of the structural issues we have.
Maybe you missed the point we have a net outflow of business now, that was never the case before. Losing a net 4800 businesses in a single year is not a recipe for success.
Wake up, this state is out of control. We are killing the goose that laid the golden egg and our state government is largely the cause of it.
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» on 04.24.12 @ 03:37 PM
P, Reagan raised taxes at exactly the wrong time, we were running out of domestic oil and really putting the screws to development of all kinds. What Reagan did was precipitate the decline and as you astutely pointed out was hidden behind unexpected bonanzas.
But as far as wanting the rich to go what you and wireless and most others seem to constantly miss is what kind of rich are going. The state is flush with trust funders, entertainers, lawyers and idle wealthy. This class of people loves to spend lavishly but their activities depend on the wealth creation of others, they themselves do not create new wealth to replace what they consume. Those wealth creators, the businesses and entrepreneurs whose activities add far more value than their consumption takes out, they are the ones leaving, P
Tell me how are you and your liberal friends going to continue to fund lavish entitlement give aways, allow for the conspicuous waste and fraud in government while increasing taxes on non productive sources? At some point even egotistical and narcissistic entertainers get tired of the leach class constantly sticking their hands in to their wallets. If the parasitic wealthy leave you have already leached out the creators so who in the hell is left to suck off of, the welfare class, the middleclass or the remaining nonproductive?
I have said it many times before and yet it doesn’t seem to sink in. The wealthy being taxed and regulated out of the state are the creators, the wealth generators those that add more than they take and basically make it possible for the rest of us to eek out a living here, including the parasitic wealthy. As wireless said, we have killed the goose that laid the golden state egg and now we are scavenging the carcass. Brown doesn’t have a clue, never did. The democrat legislature is equally clueless as is most of the republican side. But if you think you can run an entire state off tourism and mild weather you are in for a mighty big surprise.
The real estate bubble is gone and now this giant crumbling titanic state is going to have to earn its keep.
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» on 04.24.12 @ 05:13 PM
If a `wealth creator’ wants to leave California, a lean and hungry and able innovator springs up to replace them in a nanosecond here. That’s why we have Facebook, Amgen, Google, Apple, etc. Zuckerberg, Thiel, Page, Brin, Jobs… they didn’t move to Texas or Arizona.
People who say otherwise are not longer wealth creators and don’t understand innovation. They just want to wank on and guard their nest eggs while the risk taking young people work all night inventing new businesses.
And the wealth created in our ag regions is astounding. It is not `wealth creators’ but sweat of farm laborers as well as good old fashioned giant public works (water to irrigate with, highways and rail to transport on, UC Davis/Riverside ag research to efficiently plant and take are of the right stuff) that makes that happen.
Pale Republicans in suits matter not one whit…. it is young east Indians, Israelis, Chinese, Mexicans who work like crazy and create the wealth. Mitt Romney and Jerry Brown don’t know C++ from Hi-C.
A rich old lazy wander no longer wanting to work all night, learn the latest programming language or latest design/fabrication techniques… go ahead and move to a tax haven state, you are part of the problem, not the solution. Same for all the public pensioners, prison guards, etc.
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» on 04.24.12 @ 06:11 PM
P at some point even those pencil necked geeks (my self and my youngest son included) will no longer take your wretched parasitic hand constantly jammed into our wallets. More innovation is occurring outside of California. India and China have just as smart a people as Silicon Valley. You really deluding yourself if you think this state can keep going the way it is.
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» on 04.24.12 @ 08:25 PM
p,
The point of losing a net 4800 businesses in a year is that there aren’t as many new startups in CA—get it? This is what I’m talking about when I say we are killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. Facebook, Apple, Google, Intel all expand outside of CA, particularly of late. Our electric rates are about 2x other parts of the country. A big data center uses lots of juice. There are still startups to be sure but not as many as there used to be and many of the ones that do start here are moving to cheaper locales as time moves on. More startups are starting in other places as well. Startups are the life blood of CA and we are slowly pushing them out.
From 2001-2009 CA led the nation in new business creation. In 2010 we went to dead last and lost a net 4800 companies. Texas on the other hand gained many. Pull your head out of the sand and stop living in the past, this isn’t the heady days of 1982 any more here in CA. We are killing ourselves.
If things are so great why is our unemployment rate one of the highest in the country? Why are our tax revenues underperforming year over year? Why are so many businesses leaving or expanding elsewhere?
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» on 04.25.12 @ 07:53 AM
India… that country with a BBB- bond rating, just given a negative report by SP, and where corruption dwarfs that of California, and where people still squat and poo in empty lots? Really?
China… where AiWeiWei is put into jail for silly art? A center of innovation? Really?
I’ve heard the old tired white guys complain about how California is crushing business since 1978… dear old Howard Jarvis and Paul Gann said all the same stuff all the time.
And in that whole time since 1978 loads of new companies and innovations happened in California. Meanwhile Prop. 13 mainly allows doddering old companies to keep their tax assessments when they should go out of business.
The vinegar pusses like AN50 and wireless don’t get it… the people who innovate want the free-wheeling atmosphere of Silicon Valley. Sure other places will compete, good for them. But the state government and personal taxes are hardly what worried Mark Zuckerberg or Larry Ellison or Steve Jobs.
I think our State government is pretty messed up, but I bet you’ll find the R&D tax credits are pretty good. Actually, business taxes are simply not that high in California… we’ve had this debate before… bottom line is all taxes considered (including the Prop. 13 low property taxes, and all the R&D credits) California isn’t bad for business. Sure, if you want to move your zombie data server to east Washington state in the desert electricity will *always* be cheaper there, due to the Hydro… nothing new or interesting about that. But it is a zombie, doesn’t need innovation.
And sure, innovation like payday loan outlets might well be better in states without usury laws (an example you guys gave before). I really don’t think more payday loans are going to change society much.
The personal income tax is way, way high in California, believe me, I know, keeps me in way more Munis than I otherwise would. But the true innovation class, that is, those younger than 30, could really care less. They’d rather have the bars of San Francisco, the beaches of San Diego, and the snow of Mammoth than all the scrubland of West Texas.
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» on 04.25.12 @ 09:06 AM
p,
A few start ups in Silicon Valley are not going to carry this state and support our 30M+ population. We need a better rounded economy and there is no reason we shouldn’t have one. Except regulation and cost of doing business is strangling it. Here is a quick sampling of articles talking about our suicidal path.
Business friendliness rankings:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/41666607
TX vs. CA:
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/293412/texas-vs-california-chuck-devore
CA Decline:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304537904577277242682364690.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop
Browns tax plan will kill CA comeback:
http://news.investors.com/Article.aspx?id=597010&p=1&ibdbot=1
CA business Exodus:
http://www.foxandhoundsdaily.com/2011/12/the-business-exodus/
CA to business: Get out!
http://www.city-journal.org/2011/21_4_california-businesses.html
CA business climate gets worse:
http://capoliticalnews.com/2011/11/16/seiler-ca-biz-climate-just-gets-worse/
AB32 choking food processors
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=47054
Business leaving CA
http://www.mydesert.com/article/20110925/BUSINESS/109250301/Business-run-Why-California-struggles-compete?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Frontpage
CA has many advantages but we can’t defy economic gravity. You still have not addressed why our economy is lagging so badly here. Why we have a net loss of companies. Why other states are growing and we aren’t. Why our tax revenues underperform. Why we have 1/3rd of the welfare cases but only 12% of the population, and on and on and on. You’re whistling past the graveyard.
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» on 04.25.12 @ 09:13 AM
P, you seem to ignore the fact that many Silicon Valley companies (Intel, Apple, Adobe, for 3 examples) have been creating jobs everywhere BUT California for years (Oregaon, Texas, Utah, for 3 examples). Ever heard of Silicon Prairie (that would be the HUGE hightech center of devlopment in Austin, TX. Those are jobs California did not get.
And what’s with the tired white guy epithet? Sounds racist to me.
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» on 04.25.12 @ 09:55 AM
And what is wrong with businesses leaving California? Too darned crowded here anyway. Anyone who complains about California… just leave. California is better with out you! An energetic young person from Ireland or Spain or Greece or India or China would love to take your place.
Our business taxes are in the middle of the road….
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/oct/24/business/la-fi-adv-biz-taxes-20101024
Yes, income tax is high, and I don’t like it either. Personally I’d put state prisoners back on chain gangs and make them clean up and do road crew work. And I bet Mali or Zimbabwe would love to run a remote prison complex for us for 1/10 the cost of ours.
It is pretty much the old tired white guys who complain… call me racist if you want, but it is the truth… I just wish they’d all move to Texas or Montana where they feel more comfortable.
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» on 04.25.12 @ 11:30 AM
Are you kidding me? What’s wrong with business leaving CA? Cue up the twilight zone music folks. And you wonder why a state dominated by economically illiterate liberals is driving off the financial cliff. Our lefty friends are embracing decline.
Where do you think the money comes from p? Does it just magically materialize somehow? When business leaves they take these things called jobs with them. Jobs pay people money. That pay is then taxed to run your precious government and pay our teachers, cops, firefighters and government employees, pay all these benefits to all these welfare recipients, CalTrans, etc. Companies leave and the economy will shrink. When business leaves all the demand for related goods and services they purchase disappear as well. Restaurants, hotels, dry cleaners, car mechanics, machine shops, IT consultants, retail stores, etc. are all impacted.
When an economy shrinks, living standards decline. Look at our friends in Europe. As “The One” who is going to get his butt kicked in November likes to say, “its just math”.
How is this business flight working out so far? Poorly. Attitudes like yours are why this state is such a mess.
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» on 04.25.12 @ 01:31 PM
“The personal income tax is way, way high in California, believe me, I know, keeps me in way more Munis than I otherwise would.”
This is what I hate about liberals. They don’t mind everyone else paying these suffocating taxes, but heaven forbid should they have to. The biggest tax dodge known to mankind, municipal bonds, are a godsend for hypocritical liberals. I would like to have a law that anyone who votes to raise taxes should also have to pay them. I would bet that would have them singing a different tune.
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» on 04.25.12 @ 03:38 PM
P, those energetic immigrants can’t afford to live here. You still miss the point and that is wealth generation is done when you extract stuff, grow it or make things from it. It doesn’t come from snide bigoted old white guys like you suffering from an intolerable case of self importance or intellectual narcissism and living on a trust fund. My God your economic ignorance is astounding! The taxes will and must go higher P if we are as a state economy, consuming more than we put out. If you want the state’s population to become less and still enjoy your trust funded life style then the size and scope of all government and the parasitic activities of folks like you need to be radically reduced.
Your attitude that wealth or money some how grows on a tree somewhere in the central valley and is harvested for parasites to consume is way off base buster. Wise up. Chine is getting stinking wealthy making our stuff for us, just like Korea and Japan did. There is a penalty for believing you can just rest on your laurels, take a look at where all the other former empires are today. They have all suffered from your narcissistic blindness.
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» on 04.25.12 @ 04:23 PM
You guys are your usual contradictory incoherent selves… by your criteria, of course, most of California’s wealth comes from the sweat of the Mexican migrants who work their butts off harvesting California’s great crops… California’s agricultural output is nearly double that of your beloved Texas where you should just move to…
http://stuffaboutstates.com/agriculture/index.html
Guess what. That ain’t gonna change. Texas and Montana and you’re favorite places don’t create that kind of wealth with their ag anytime soon.
You’re all consciously evading my primary point… in a vital place like California (or Manhattan) energetic young people pop up, many of them immigrants, who are way, way more productive than us old tired white folks. And they don’t really care much about taxes or Mitt Romney or even Barack Obama.
I never said nor implies wealth magically materializes. It doesn’t. It comes from the hard work and sweat of generally young people who do things like… harvest California’s great agricultural bounty, or who work their butts off developing Google or Facebook or Adobe or Cisco Systems. It is a scream that you convert my respect for hard work into just the opposite.
Meanwhile, old tired white guys contribute just about zip to wealth in this state. Go away to Montana or Idaho or Austria or wherever you feel comfortable, you can complain all you hate about California from outside the state boundaries.
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» on 04.25.12 @ 04:56 PM
Publius,
Your racist comments about tired old white men are right on the money. Since you keep bringing up race, permit me to add a few thoughts.
The white birth rate in California last year was less than 20 percent of all births. In 1960, it was over 90 percent. You would probably call that progress.
But imagine if, fifty years from now, Palestine were 80 percent Jewish and 20 percent Muslim…or if Mexico were 80 percent white? (a silly thought, I know)
We would most certainly call that genocide, but the same thing has happened in California the past fifty years, and racist liberals like you like to call it “progress.”
I live in low-income housing in SB, and almost all of my neighbors speak Spanish. They don’t even have to show citizenship to qualify for low-income housing. What a boon for poor immigrants, and what a bummer for all the tired old white men who get to pay for their free housing.
If genocide is what you advocate, you may as well be more up front about it. My guess is, you are far more racist than even your snide comments about tired old white men would indicate.
So let’s be clear, publius: You are a racist, and you think California is doing just fine.
Well, gotta respect your honesty, even if your thoughts are revolting.
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» on 04.25.12 @ 06:19 PM
Genocide smenocide… I never mentioned it, I don’t advocate it, just take your own word back and insert it in someplace dark and moist, Schifter.
And I’m completely against *illegal* immigration. Anyone illegal should get in line behind the millions who applied legally and got denied.
But *legal* immigrants are a powerhouse for the US and are terrific… something old tired Europe doesn’t have. Or China, which is older and tireder (due to the 1-child policy) than we generally know.
California is not doing fine… Carey McWilliams documented the core problem years ago… California grows way too fast, adding a North Dakota every year or two. No wonder our State Government is a mess… it has never been able to keep up with all the growth.
Call me a racist, smacist, gracist, whatever. The truth is the truth. Anybody who spends their time whining and pettifogging in our great State is quickly swept aside by the able and energetic. Jarvis and Gann didn’t found Apple or Amgen or even harvest a single darned kiwi fruit, strawberry, or broccoli.
That is the great part here. Except… we have a 1800’s government, our darned system keeps that stuck in the mud while progress sweeps around it and over it, but progress would be far greater if we could reconstitute State government.
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» on 04.25.12 @ 07:26 PM
Actually p, you are consciously evading my points. That being we are hemorrhaging companies from CA and rank last in new business creation and business friendliness. I guess that is just a coincidence. I guess its great that we lost 4800 net businesses in 2010, data isn’t out yet for 2011 but I’d imagine its similarly grim. Hint: new businesses = startups.
Startups will continue to form in CA, but there are and will be fewer than there would be if we didn’t have such a crappy business environment. You keep waving your rhetorical hands and telling us every thing is going to be fine because young propeller heads don’t mind high tax rates and unfriendly business climates. They’ll stay on the gerbil wheel because they like to chase tail in the bars in San Diego and Silicon Valley. What a profound argument. Let’s put you in for a Nobel Prize in Economics.
You don’t address any of the concrete data we’ve presented. You have not addressed in a coherent manner any of the numerous articles or data that has been presented pointing out what a self-inflicted economically destructive train wreck our situation in CA is.
According to you, if all the old conservative white guys would leave things would be wonderful. Earth to publius: When all the old white guys leave they’ll take their money with them. Which takes me back to my original point that we have 60K out of 30M people paying half the taxes. Those are mostly old white guys I’m guessing. Great idea chasing them off.
Talk about incoherence.
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» on 04.25.12 @ 08:49 PM
I gave quite a specific reference on the fact that California’s business taxes are quite typical, and similar to Texas’:
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/oct/24/business/la-fi-adv-biz-taxes-20101024
That California lost 4600 new businesses in 2010 is bad… I’ll bet you the real estate crash had something to do with that… but you overlook the fact that the same California policies/environment were in place for 2001-2009, during which time California ranked either first or second in the nation in new business creation. During that entire 2001-2009 period, wireless, you mounted and whined that California had a rotten business climate. You always do. On a sunny day you complain about the lack of rain, and on a rainy day the lack of sun, if you can blame it on California. Just move to Texas!
Most of the WSJ article is about Government travails, like pensions and prisons. I’m in favor of chain gangs and exporting prisons to Mali and Zimbabwe. That is pretty specific! And on pensions, sure, I’d peg them at $100K no more with the tax code (both for public and private pensions). Any income above $100K from a defined benefit system should be taxed at 99.9%.
Too bad Waste Connections left Folsom for Texas. That is 100 jobs. Boo Hoo. Facebook employs 2,000 and is worth 25 times what Waste Connections is.
California is fun, and that brings the young entrepreneurs here. Always has, always will. Texas is hot and weird. Some people will like it but more will always like California.
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» on 04.25.12 @ 09:15 PM
p,
It’s not just business taxes that cause us to lose business. It’s regulation, employment law, electricity costs, rent costs, environmental laws, building difficulties and torment, personal income taxes, sales taxes, an abusive state tax collector, employment costs, bad schools, living costs, tort environment and on and on and on. Its cumulative. The numbers speak for themselves and its not due to the housing bust.
We have gone from leading the nation in pretty much everything to lagging in almost everything. We used to have the best freeways, public infrastructure, roads, schools, etc. Now we are at the bottom in all of those categories. Only Mississippi trails us in K-12 education. Splendid. We have a huge state government, huge pension liabilities, high taxes and piss poor services.
We went from leading the nation in new business creation, i.e. startups, to dead last in a very short period. Not a big deal says publius, because we have facebook. You cannot build an economy for a state of 30M+ people on social networking companies.
You seem completely immune from facts that don’t comport with your leftist fantasy views of our imploding state. We used to lead the country out of recessions, now we are lagging badly. That says it all.
You sir, are part of the problem. Its called a willful denial of the obvious.
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» on 04.25.12 @ 10:05 PM
To say that California ranked 1st or 2nd in business creation in the US is a very clever sleight of hand. Of course, California which has a population that dwarfs the size of most states might create more jobs than states with populations half the size of Ca., however, if we look at the number of jobs created as a percentage of the workforce, California ranks almost dead last in the US. Also, it is stupid to compare the the numbers of jobs created, instead of the NET number of jobs created. If a state created many jobs but lost even more jobs, I don’t think we are giving any medals to that state.
Finally, to say that businesses in Ca. don’t pay more taxes as a percentage of their income than other states is also slightly deceptive. It may have eluded you that businesses will pay less if their total income has declined and are paying lower marginal rates as a result. I wouldn’t be giving California any pats on the back for this performance. BTW, you wouldn’t get any arguments from me if you eliminated all tax breaks including municipal bonds and lower the rates for every one.
You can put lipstick on a pig but it is still a pig.
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» on 04.25.12 @ 10:30 PM
p,
A little more salt for wound.
Here is one from that right wing rag Vanity Fair about CA travails:
http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2011/11/michael-lewis-201111
CA business departures accelerating:
http://thebusinessrelocationcoach.blogspot.com/2011/06/calif-business-departures-increasing.html
This guy has a business just to help companies leave CA:
http://thebusinessrelocationcoach.blogspot.com/
CA’s Green Jihad:
http://blogs.forbes.com/joelkotkin/2011/06/07/californias-green-jihad/
Best and worst states for doing business:
http://chiefexecutive.net/best-worst-states-for-business
Why the US loses out on iPhone work (much less CA):
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/apple-america-and-a-squeezed-middle-class.html?pagewanted=all
Film flight and its economic impact on CA:
http://www.milkeninstitute.org/pdf/FilmFlight.pdf
While we in CA were busy losing over a net 4000 companies in 2010 the state of Washington, hardly a conservative bastion, created net over 8500 companies. They have less than 7M people, CA has 37M. So with 1/5th the population, crappy weather, a weak University system relative to CA, and a relatively weak Venture Capital system compared to CA, WA knocked it out of the park and CA is circling the toilet. How many of those companies could have been based in CA? Most I’m guessing, but we are too hostile.
I could spend all night linking to evidence that what we are doing in this state is not working. We are falling behind the rest of country. Certainly relative to what we should be doing given our access to capital, university system and great weather.
Wake up. You are in denial.
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» on 04.26.12 @ 07:03 AM
Wireless, lou segal, AN50, Schifter, don’t let the door bang your bum on your way out of California as you move to Washington or Texas.
That you don’t just leave California shows you are complete hypocrites.
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» on 04.26.12 @ 09:17 AM
p,
Given that you can’t address any of our points substantively I will consider the argument conceded. CA is a big mess. A mess of its own creation.
I love CA. I was born here and I love living in Santa Barbara. I want to see our state do well again, that is my concern. I’d like my children to enjoy the CA I grew up in, not the train wreck it is now.
Because we have the temerity to point out that we are badly under performing our potential does not make us hypocrites. We are the one’s trying to fix the mess. You and your leftist cohorts on the other hand seem happy to watch our state, and country for that matter, circle the drain. You embrace decline. You are part of the problem. If anyone is a hypocrite its you.
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» on 04.26.12 @ 09:53 AM
California is far and away the #1 ag state in the union… and continues to be. Real wealth creation by *anyone’s* measure. A specific point I make and that you guys fail to address… ag production in California is not quantitatively in decline at all.
California’s business taxes are middle of the road according to the reference I site… according to statistics kept by a careful, business-oriented group. A specific point I make that you guys fail to address.
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/oct/24/business/la-fi-adv-biz-taxes-20101024
Creation of terrific, profitable businesses, like Facebook (Zuckerberg specifically left Massachusetts and New York to come here) that are worth $100 billion and employ thousands remains a California signature. You guys fail to accept that, and pretend it doesn’t exist, and point to 100-person businesses in trash processing like Waste Connections leaving for Texas as a problem. Well, trash processing is notoriously corrupt and dominated by organized crime. Let them go to Texas, I say, I’d much rather have Facebook or GoToMyPC.
Yes, the creative people in California outsource their zombie servers to Washington State, and their fabrication to China.
It is you guys who never provide quantitative, coherent arguments. A bunch of random links from lists a conservative interest group give to you don’t make a coherent argument. That Vanity Fair article… a cheesecake love poem to Arnold Schwarznegger, who is frankly a despicable person for his extramarital activity, and deserves 50 years of hard time in Folsom, or, well Mali or Zimbabwe.
What a joke for any of us from Santa Barbara to complain about anybody *leaving* California. In Santa Barbara we hate growth and development and love it when people leave. We go out of our way to stop business and always have. About 150 million barrels of oil easy to get in our Channel and we stop it. If you love business development, you can only hate Santa Barbara, and would move away.
I frankly don’t judge people as left or right wing. I’m the one who has faith in hard work, wireless, not you.
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» on 04.26.12 @ 11:10 AM
p,
I did address the business tax thing by pointing out there are many reasons people pull up and leave, taxes are one reason. Regulations and other expenses are another. It is a barrage of insults that finally force businesses to conclude they need to leave. The simple fact of the matter is that we will not be successful as a state if we are chasing business away. There aren’t enough Facebooks.
This state is doing everything in its power to screw up a good thing. We are badly, badly under-performing our past performance and potential. There simply is no denying that we have a net outflow of business, productive citizens and their wealth out of CA. What you haven’t answered is why, if CA is so great, are we lagging much of the country when we used to be the undisputed king?
I’ll answer it for you: because things aren’t great, there a mess.
You talk about Ag, I suggest you talk to some farmers about what the EPA/state is doing to them between the AB32 diesel mandates, to the farm dust rules to the proposed water runoff rules they are being squeezed very hard. Sales are one thing, profitability is another. Drive up I-5 sometime and look at all the fallow farmland that was intentionally ruined by restricting water to them with the whole bogus Delta Smelt fiasco. The radical environmental left wants everything to return to nature and they use the EPA and courts to do their bidding.
Santa Barbara is anti-business in many ways. Foolishly so. If it doesn’t change its tune it’s just a matter of time before it becomes the Hamptons of the west coast. Rich people who bring their money with them and services to support them. Little opportunity for our children to raise their children in their hometown, that’s a shame. Everyone can’t just service each other. Somebody has to actually produce something to have a vibrant economy that can support a middle class.
I predict that the financial issues facing the state and county are so severe that sooner or later even the lefties will relent on drilling. There isn’t anywhere else to get the money.
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» on 04.26.12 @ 11:15 AM
Here is more evidence of how “great” we are doing:
Even the illegal Mexicans are starting to go home because there aren’t any jobs
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» on 04.26.12 @ 11:56 AM
Here is where CA is headed. We are getting a preview in IL:
http://news.investors.com/article/609216/201204251909/illinois-headed-for-insolvency.htm?p=full
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» on 04.26.12 @ 05:29 PM
I have to say P, your diatribe is most disappointing. You seem to have the impression as most Americans do these days that making a profit is the same as creating wealth. You couldn’t be more wrong and if you are a retired person living off bonds and investments, to your own detriment.
First, though I generally agree that agriculture is a net wealth generator (adds more value to the economy as a whole than it consumes operating) in the case of California our agriculture is heavily subsidized by the tax payers of the US through the California Water Project. The jury is still out on its net worth.
Second, entities like Facebook are services, some like Google maps, may have a net added value but on the whole social networking is a net drain on the economy, no matter how much profit its creators made off advertizing dollars that support it. It is subsidized through the added cost to products and actually is the engine driving domestic manufacturing offshore.
Many services are in the same category; in fact some 80% of the American economy is now in the net consumption of wealth (value) category. Law, entertainment, social networking, retail, transportation, government and other such conveniences and necessities tend to consume more value than they create regardless of profitability or who has their hands on the control dial of the economy (markets or governments).
The gross failure of our country to realize this or deal with it has led to 4 decades of disastrous trade deficits and government borrowing. It is the prime cause of our diminishing middleclass. Yet we watch in some drooling catatonic state one country after another take the most powerful wealth creating engine we have, manufacturing, and do with it what we refuse.
We still have the largest and most diverse manufacturing economy on earth, 2 times the size of the next 5 largest manufacturing economies. Yet it is not enough to pay for our gambling addiction or petulant preference for doing non-value added work and our greedy appetite for quick wealth at the expense of the country at large.
Now then, your idiotic preference to see people leave the state because of some dopy retired person driven misanthropy is stunning. You seem to think the state will do fine without the complainers. Yet the very captains of industry in the Silicon Valley, the ones actually responsible for making the hardware necessary for the parasites to exist, are lamenting their decisions to outsource manufacturing.
These are mostly liberal businessmen P, who want a clean state and liberal social values, but they, as I, have found wanting becomes reality when you earn enough to pay for it. And the only economies that get rich are the ones that make their own stuff whether software or hardware.
As far as your narcissistic attitude toward those of us who disagree with your close the gates mentality, my family was here long before America and you damned east coast liberals. So I will tattoo another name on the bottom of my boot buster, yours, and if anyone is leaving it’s gonna be you, with my boot print on your bum (figuratively speaking of course). Cheers.
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» on 04.26.12 @ 07:08 PM
Japan makes most of its own stuff… its been mired in recession for years.
Cost of the California Aqueduct in 1965 dollars: $4.3 billion. Let’s say $50 billion in 2012 dollars.
One year of California’s ag crop is worth $40 billion today. Since 1965 there have been about 46 ag crops. Seems to me the ag output of California more than paid for the investment in the Aqueduct.
Does real wealth come from oil production? Goodness, talk about an industry soaked in tax breaks and taxpayer handouts. And… guess what… California does not tax oil. Not at all (don’t try to tell me royalties on oil taken on State property are a tax, they aren’t.)
I’m sorry, the real underachievers in California are anyone over 50. They are not the job creators, and they are a drag on the economy. And then when they complain and are gloomy, they are just worse, they should just move to Texas or Austria or Montana where they can all sit together and complain.
The job creators are the hustlers who are doing everything possible to create new industries and new products, whatever there is a demand for. In ag. In software. Sure, in social networking, if there is a demand for it from the ground up. It is all innovation.
To me, the sort of thing that sank California was the real estate bubble. Crooked local loan officers not checking loan applications, and crooks turning in lying information, and then crooks all the way up both chains of command (public and private) leading to an unsustainable bubble. Didn’t happen in Germany or Canada.
Flipping homes doesn’t create new anything. At least Facebook does create more efficient information transfer.
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» on 04.26.12 @ 10:07 PM
Dude, what is your hangup with 50 year olds? Quite odd frankly.
Here is a graphical depiction of CA’s company creation history. You know that Johnny Cash song “I’m going down, down, down in a burning ring of fire…”
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/2011/08/ca-new-business-creation.html
Yep, things are just peachy here in publius fantasy land. Otherwise known as self-denial manor.
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» on 04.26.12 @ 10:32 PM
p,
Regarding oil, the tax “breaks” you are whining about are standard business deductions available to any business. Refined products are taxed. The government extracts way more tax per gallon of gas than the industry does in profit.
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» on 04.27.12 @ 09:52 AM
P, Japan is mired in a perpetual recession for doing exactly what we have done the last 3 years, borrow and spend in some fit of Keynesian worship. Plus they also borrowed another trick of ours, outsourcing manufacturing.
As for the aqueduct you forgot interest on the bonds and its enormous operating cost and the additional bonds since its origin for upgrades and expansion. Like I said the jury is still out on the balance of payments. Still, like you I favor the project and support the agriculture it produces.
Oil did pay heavy dividends in it’s hey day particularly here in California. Our vast state wealth was built on the back of cheap oil like most of the country. It’s debatable whether that is true today, but whether we subsidize it or not its still far better we drill our own than buy it from people who hate us.
I don’t share your self-loathing over being an old useless retired grump. I still innovate and create and build with my own two hands. Get off your butt and do something for your self if you feel so bad about being old. Don’t sell the over 50 crowd short just because the majority of them are like you.
I will say it again, there are those whose creation, motivation and energy add more value than they and their operations consume and then there are bankers, lawyers, entertainers, sports figures, politicians and 80% of the rest of us that don’t. Know the damned difference, stop penalizing the doers and the makers and forcing our greatest asset, manufacturing offshore.
Finally P, I agree with you 100% on the housing debacle. It closes the loop on your argument because our mini bubble pop 2 decades ago is what sent Japan into its nearly 2 decade recession. Yes they invested heavily in our real estate while they were growing stinking rich off making our stuff for us during the 80’s. Your comment also highlights what I have been on about for a while now, our cultural preponderance for get rich quick, get rich not doing anything and get rich at other’s expense.
P, if you value the creative and innovative spirit of the tech age then lets work toward incubating that and its real intrinsic wealth generating offspring, manufacturing instead of constantly saddling it with obstruction, regulation and taxation. I don’t begrudge the slackers who accumulate wealth rather than generate it, but I am real tired of these people screwing those that do make wealth, either because they don’t know the difference or they feel guilty about what they do.
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» on 04.28.12 @ 12:08 PM
As far as I know >96% of the California Water Projects ongoing costs are paid by the ag water users. As far as I know irrigation systems in California are well known to be very profitable in the long run, in large part because of the quality of the California weather and soil conditions. Sometimes you gotta invest a dollar to make 10 dollars.
Curious comment about Japan… their downfall didn’t start with the debt problem. But in any case, in the US, huge deficits were run by the Bush Administration to finance the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and the prescription drug benefit. Deficits during good time are exactly the wrong way to go. We should save and establish surpluses during flush times, and then spend like crazy during periods of a bad economy. But the deficit hawks of the early 2000’s were laughed at by Bush, Cheney (direct quote from Cheney to Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill in December 2002… ``“You know, Paul, Reagan proved deficits don’t matter,” he said, according to excerpts. Cheney continued: “We won the midterms (congressional elections). This is our due.” A month later, Cheney told the Treasury secretary he was fired.’‘), Paul Ryan, and just about all the conservatives except Ron Paul.
And so we find we can’t spend in the down economy because it makes big deficits. What a mess.
Not sure wealth creation by having the manufacturing and raw material production in country is always right… maybe so, maybe not. China is willing to pollute the beejesus out of their Country to get wealth right now. Not sure it will pan out… in the US when we manufactured the concentrations of toxic stuff weren’t quite as high as contemporary production.
And it is amazing how modern financial structures keep us all in thrall to guys like the heads of Lehman, who we now learn got bonus of $50 million for basically squat. Not clear anymore who wins, although, maybe it is the country with the most hydrogen bombs, still.
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» on 04.28.12 @ 03:36 PM
Hey, P, so what is your solution. Emulate the European socialist welfare model which is working so well there. Tax the heck out of the productive class, run huge deficits, unionize the work force, implement anti-competitive labor laws and business practices, centralize and nationalize business with a top-down govt bureaucracy and watch the GNP and the economy go down the drain. The typical liberal approach which has never worked. I noticed France is about to cut its own throat with election of the socialist candidate, Hollande. It couldn’t happen to a nicer group of people than the French (sarcasm).
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» on 04.28.12 @ 08:11 PM
As CA crumbles, Obama follows its lead:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/04/27/as-california-collapses-obama-follows-its-lead.html
This guy is a Democrat who wrote this and this magazine definitely leans left. Has so very specific metrics directly refuting p’s dreams that the propeller heads will pull us out of the nosedive.
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» on 04.28.12 @ 09:37 PM
At the end of the day, life is hard and then you die. But you shouldn’t make life harder than it needs to be. We in CA are doing just that. We can’t create a regulatory rat trap and an unfriendly business environment and not expect to have some consequences. We are and will continue to suffer the consequences of anti-competitive and self-destructive behavior.
The shame is we have all the tools we need to kick butt but we insist on shooting ourselves in the foot instead. The policies we are pursuing in CA are beyond mindless. How we got in this mess is an interesting political discussion with plenty of finger pointing but it does nothing to pave the path forward. But there is no doubt that the CA governor and legislature are failing our state badly.
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» on 04.28.12 @ 09:54 PM
How government retirement benefits are sinking the states:
This piece is about IL but we here in CA are quite possibly in even worse shape. I’ve seen estimates that CA unfunded pension liabilities are in the $500B neighborhood. There is zero chance those will be paid. Going to get ugly.
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» on 04.28.12 @ 10:09 PM
The slowest recovery on record plods along:
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» on 04.29.12 @ 10:41 AM
CA to middle class: Drop dead:
http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/state-351388-california-growth.html#
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» on 04.29.12 @ 02:49 PM
Direct quote from then Vice President Dick Cheney to Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill in December 2002… ``“You know, Paul, Reagan proved deficits don’t matter,” he said, according to excerpts. Cheney continued: “We won the midterms (congressional elections). This is our due.” A month later, Cheney told the Treasury secretary he was fired.
Wow, none of you care about that.
Sure pensions are a mess, but only I have suggested a hard limit (for both public and private) at $100,000… tax the beejesus out of anything above that, including the firefighters, city managers, etc as well as the corporate executives with giant corporate golden parachutes.
And we should never forget: Bush and Paulson gave $25 trillion to Wall Strett for their $10 million bonuses at the height of the bailout. No-one talks about that enough… and not, it has never been paid back, claims otherwise are smoke and mirrors.
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» on 04.29.12 @ 05:02 PM
We know p, everything is all Bush’s fault with the boogey man Dick Cheney behind the curtains pulling the marionette strings.
Never mind our current president is either completely incompetent/economically illiterate or he is intentionally trying to bankrupt our country, not sure which. His budget proposals are so totally outrageous and suicidal not even the Democrats will vote for them. Obama makes Bush look like a piker. Obama’s debt is more than Bush’s in less than half the time, i.e. 4X+ the rate of debt accumulation.
Good luck running on the “its all Bush’s fault” campaign theme, I hope they keep it up as nothing will lead to a more crushing defeat for Obama than that approach.
PS: where on earth did you come up with $25T in bailout money from the Bush administration. This should be interesting.
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» on 04.29.12 @ 05:53 PM
The World Trade Center was bombed in 1993. Slick Willy had nearly seven full years to do something about the problem.
Clearly, Bill Clinton failed to protect America.
But yes, let us continue to blame Bush for 9/11, and Republicans in general for all of America’s failings.
Let us continue to live in La-la land.
BTW, why does San Francisco have two football teams and Los Angeles have none?
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» on 04.29.12 @ 09:56 PM
I mention *nothing* about 9/11. The fault for 9/11, the 1993 WTC bombing, the Tanzania and Kenya bombings are with Al Qaeda.
If you complain about deficits, you must at least acknowledge simply and directly that Dick Cheney said in 2002:
Direct quote from then Vice President Dick Cheney to Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill in December 2002… ``“You know, Paul, Reagan proved deficits don’t matter,” he said, according to excerpts. Cheney continued: “We won the midterms (congressional elections). This is our due.” A month later, Cheney told the Treasury secretary he was fired.
Now Paul O’Neill was OK. The point, however, is that during good economic times we should be accumulating surpluses to spend during down times. Spending during recessions and depressions would be a good idea *if it did not incur deficits*. The only way to do that is to save and be cheap when economic times are good. Cheney and Bush *did not do that*.
The figure of $23.7 trillion comes form the Special Inspector General for the TARP program:
Another $8 trillion was loaned by the Federal Reserve to banks. Due to the favorable interest rates, the banks were able to charge more to customers and make a quick $13 billion gratis from the taxpayer:
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business/2011/11/fed-gave-banks-trillions-in-bailout-bloomberg-reports/
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» on 04.29.12 @ 10:39 PM
p,
That report you linked to I think you were off by a digit, it was $2.5T roughly, not $25T that the Bush admin potentially put us on the hook for if TARP defaulted. 1000 x $1B = $1T. You need to move 3 decimal points. An easy mistake because the numbers are so mind-bogglingly huge.
In fact the govt. made money on the actual loans of about $400B they made that have in fact mostly been paid back plus capital gains and interest. Backing a loan and actually having to pay it back are two different things.
That said, I totally disagreed with what they did. Forcing solvent or insolvent banks to take loans or have the govt. take equity positions was disgraceful. If they really felt the system was in meltdown they should have just made a loan vehicle available to backstop the risk. Which by the way the Fed had already done without any legislative action. Which is another discussion altogether (how do they have the authority to commit the public to these obligations without any executive and legislative review?).
It is not totally clear how much the Federal Reserve has even put in play. This is where the Ron Paul types go nuts and they have a point. It’s become almost Monopoly money.
In my view, the main reason they did TARP was to put an official government stamp of approval on the massive amount of cash they flooded the system with through the Fed’s lending vehicles. Personally I think they overreacted. Many smart people feel otherwise. Regardless, it was mostly a paper chase, no real money was involved on a Federal legislative level. The Federal Reserve however is another matter. They continue to print dollars and it is not clear at all how that will work out.
Bush’s biggest screw up was not enforcing more spending discipline, I will readily acknowledge that and was pissed at the time. But you must be intellectually honest and acknowledge that Obama has been even worse. He would spend every dime we had if he could. The guy is a disaster.
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» on 04.30.12 @ 07:46 AM
Page 2, next to last sentence; no mistake on the decimal place.
``The total potential Federal Government support could reach up to $23.7 trillion.’‘
Anyone who things Wall Street, out of the kindness of their hearts, will not grab the maximum is childish and gullible.
Sure, Obama has spent more. We need to cancel all foreign millitary efforts… we simply can’t afford them anymore, where is the money? And cut Social Security and Medicare.
I’d favor a flat tax of 15% on all gross proceeds, not a single deduction allowed, not one.
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» on 04.30.12 @ 09:12 PM
p,
Your assertion was Bush put us on the hook for all of this, he didn’t. TARP was all that was authorized that he had control over, that maximum liability was about $2.5T but in reality was basically zero as it got paid back. The total liability mentioned in the report is largely what the Fed has done and yes, that is a huge liability. The Fed is not subject to control by the Executive branch and unless Congress decides to change their charter they are on their own.
As I mentioned this what Ron Paul is so exercised about and he has a good point. The Fed has put us all on the hook for a huge amount of money with no real oversight or approval by our elected leaders. Its scary. Bush and Obama can’t really control what the Fed is doing, though in fairness, they both approved of the actions. Particularly Obama of late. If the Fed pulls back on liquidity the economy will slow even more and he’s toast. So Obama loves all the printing, never mind the consequences.
We do finally have something we agree upon though! I would take a flat 15% federal tax on all income in a nanosecond. For everyone. What could be more fair than that?
SS, Medicare and Medicaid will be dramatically reformed, we have no choice. We are just witnessing the dying throws of an agonizing death. All three are technically insolvent as we speak. The sooner we get serious about it the easier it will be. The Ryan plan is a good start but not adequate for the long run. It is politically achievable though. There is nothing else on the table that is even half way serious.
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» on 04.30.12 @ 09:20 PM
How incompetent is Obama and his campaign team? Pretty much so apparently. So after testing a number of new campaign slogans for months they finally settle on a new one: “Forward”. With the O being the familiar Obama O.
Apparently his team are basically Marxists as they picked a well known slogan from Communist movements of the past. It has a long and glorious past in European Socialist movements. You can’t make it up.
A long way from Hope and Change. How ironic, and telling, they settled on this slogan. God help us.
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» on 04.30.12 @ 10:51 PM
Not to rub salt in the wound but this piece summarizes our CA disfunction pretty well. Its not pretty:
http://hotair.com/archives/2012/04/30/california-by-the-numbers/
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» on 05.01.12 @ 07:22 AM
The Special Inspector General for TARP says TARP is nowhere near repaid in their most recent report, and is unlikely to ever be repaid. And `repaid’ here is a tricky, phony, accounting trick in most cases.
TARP took >$25 trillion from US taxpayers and put it in the pockets of Wall Street, pure and simple. Because of the fact that Wall Street owns the enforcement mechanisms, the reports of SIGTARP can only be the tip of the iceberg. The liability may in the end be as much as $50 trillion, which adds together the direct TARP and the Federal Reserve subidies.
*BOTH* the Republicans and Democrats are crony socialists… they take taxpayer money and spread it around to their buddies, through the bailouts and also through illogical and pointless wars in Iraq and Afganistan. Ron Paul got it right on that… not a single US troop should ever be on foreign soil without a 2/3 majority vote of all US adults in the future. Anything else results in General Dynamics, etc, making billions on the death of our children in the military.
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» on 05.01.12 @ 01:42 PM
p,
You are simply wrong, that is not what it says. Reread it. He said total govt exposure could reach $23T, he did not say TARP exposure. The table for TARP and associated programs on the next page puts it in the $2.5T range. The biggest exposure is the Federal Reserve, exactly as I said.
Secondly, did you bother to look at the date on this report, it was 2009. There was $245B dispersed in TARP funds to banks and over $170B has been paid back as of Nov 2011. Other TARP money was dispersed to the auto bailout. Some TARP money has not been distributed. One of biggest culprits in not repaying TARP funds is GM and its finance arm GMAC accounting for $119B.
The govt has written off about $40B of the $80B given to the auto companies in bailout funds. GM was given a special $18B tax write off and $22B was written off as lost already. We have already lost more in that auto bailout than those companies were ever worth. Quite the “investment”.
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» on 05.01.12 @ 04:19 PM
Hairsplitting, wireless. Cheney and Obama and Dodd and Frank and Graham… crony socialists who take >$25 Trillion in taxpayer dollars and spread it around to their friends, whether General Dynamics or George Soros.
If you think SIGTARP is not just the tip of the iceberg you are a gullible child.
Focusing only on GM shows you to be a dupe of the conservatives… only going after the Democratic swindles. You don’t care one whit about the Republican swindles… most notably, subsidizing 2 giant wars for >$5 Trillion… the officer corps of our Military is way more Republican than the population, and they wallow in the dirty dollars of crony socialists in their double-dipping years as sure as GM or George Soros.
In any case, in the end, it is the young who want to come to California that give me hope. Pretty much everyone over about 30 is so corrupt now in California and America that the only States with hope are the ones where young people want to come and innovate. Luckily California has not lost that group. All the griping 40+ white people like me are not going to save this State or this Country.
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» on 05.01.12 @ 08:39 PM
p,
It’s not hairsplitting at all, they are called facts. 2.5T is a whole lot different that 23T. It is important to be accurate.
TARP will turn out to a financially somewhat non-event (except the auto bailout where we lose money). I think it was a bad idea and set a horrible precedent but financially it will not be hugely material. What the Fed is doing is another matter altogether, that is scary.
I’m not a dupe of conservatives, I am a conservative and proud of it. I pointed out GM because a) that was not the intent of the TARP money, b) it was totally politically motivated, c) it took 230 years of contract law and flushed it down the toilet and d) it was a waste of money. I will happily do battle with lefties all day long and pummel them with logic and facts. For example, your number of >5T on the wars is absurd. You have to take the incremental spending above the normal maintenance of the military. Iraq, the entire thing, was slightly over $1T, Afghanistan less.
What does the officer corps have to do with anything? They serve at the pleasure of the President, get paid poorly, and spend huge amounts of time away from their families to protect our country. What exactly are you insinuating? The fact that more Republicans serve in the military than Democrats speaks poorly of the Democrats, not Republicans.
I was starting to think you were rational but then you go off on this conspiratorial rant about GD, GM and Soros and you sound like a nutjob. Chill, the trilateral commission and the Bilderbergs aren’t pulling all the strings.
Regarding CA, you seem completely immune to the ample information that we are losing ground and talent. If you think we can keep acting like we’ve been acting and there won’t be economic consequences then you can live in your happy place and hold on while we circle the drain.
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» on 05.01.12 @ 11:07 PM
Wireless, I read the Hotair article you linked to about California, and I couldn’t believe that of the 10 million population increase from 1985 to 2005, only 150,000 were tax filers. 1.5% of all the people coming to the state during this period pay income taxes. If you think about this, it is not a mystery why we are going down the tubes. I think the only hope is to break up the state into 2 parts. San Francisco and some of the coastal areas can have their own state. The rest of the state can begin to repair the mess left by the wacko environmentalists, socialists and guilt-ridden limousine liberal nutjobs.
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» on 05.02.12 @ 07:22 AM
There’s no conspiracy, just both Republicans feeding at the trough and then Democrats feeding at the trough. A disorganized feed fest.
The total bailout money exceeded $25T right to the wallets of the crony socialists. That one slice of it is labeled TARP or not is immaterial.
You’re not including all the health care costs into the future for those wars. Now we absolutely must pay that cost without wavering.
But it was a terrible decision to go into Iraq and Afghanistan, wasted our youth and our money. We simply don’t have the money for the military anymore, we can’t afford it, sorry, too bad. There should have been no normal maitenance, but we should cut the budget for anything not on US soil.
Anyone who says otherwise is a dupe of the crony socialists like Cheney (Mr. Deficits don’t matter who fired Paul O’Neill).
We don’t have the money. We can’t afford it. If you don’t understand simple economics, you’ve been duped.
I’ll say it outright: the military supports Republicans and uses its power to, well, remember Ron Brown, chair of the Democratic Party? Dead in a military plane. No big conspiracy, but if there is a chance for the military or secret service to harm non-Republicans, the Constitution is out the window. And the Democrats do the same through the mechanisms that they can control, usually regulatory. It is a dirty rotten corrupt system, only redeemed by the fact that China and Russia are worse.
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» on 05.02.12 @ 08:18 PM
p,
There is no possible way to spend over $3T on future medical costs for wounded vets. We’ve been through this math before but apparently it didn’t stick. That would require spending over $600M for each wounded vet. It is an absurd assertion on your part.
You apparently have zero background in defense and geopolitics. If you did you would never say something like we should not have a forward military presence. You don’t know what you are talking about.
There is too much cronyism, I agree. Worse the last few years than probably ever in our history. If you are too big to fail you are too big.
So the military knocked off Ron Brown by crashing one of their own planes? Why exactly would they do that? More importantly, why on earth would you bring something like that up. Good grief, get a grip on yourself you’re starting to sound like a tin foil hat wearing black helicopter guy.
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» on 05.02.12 @ 11:18 PM
ooops. I actually made a mistake. It’s not $600M its about $60M that would have to spent on each injured soldier to meet p’s >$3T in ongoing injury costs. Typing too fast…
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» on 05.03.12 @ 09:42 AM
At *least* $3 Trillion, fair to double that….
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/03/AR2010090302200.html
I really don’t doubt at all that some sort of weird behind-the-scenes backstabbing killed Ron Brown. Like Pat Tillman… our military will say whatever it needs to say to self-justify. Just another branch of US Government which always does the same.
It is not whether a forward military presence is desirable.
It is simply: we cannot afford it. There is no money. Our debt is too high.
Lots of expenditures would be nice if we could afford them. We can’t continue to police the world, particularly when the rest of the world is even more corrupt… we put $100’s of billions into Afghanistan where the tribal leaders are frankly pederasts. What the frank do we think we are doing.
We shot our wad and just don’t have the money any more to police the world. Sorry about that, but facts are facts.
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» on 05.03.12 @ 10:47 AM
This is a perfect time for the old Reagan quote: “the problem with our liberal friends isn’t that they’re wrong, its that they know so much that isn’t so.”
You could zero out the DoD budget and it wouldn’t come close to solving our fiscal problems. Never mind that the defense of our country is one of the few responsibilities they federal government actually has in the Constitution.
Like I said before, it is obvious you have zero understanding of geopolitics, history or strategy and the importance to our economy of maintaining a strong defense, particularly the Navy. Why don’t you read this, maybe you’ll learn something:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/052128127X/thedaical-20
Our defense spending over time has averaged about 4% of GDP. Every time we have dipped below 4% for a prolonged period we have had to spend much more to rebuild capability. Obama has us on a path to 2.3% of GDP which is a level that has historically proven to be disastrous. It is much cheaper to maintain capability than to build it. Tax revenues average 18% of GDP. DoD’s not breaking the bank, it’s entitlements.
Somehow we’ve maintained the world’s most advanced and capable military with an all volunteer force, fight two wars plus a global war on terror, and yet at the peak last year we spent just 5 percent of gross domestic product on defense — a figure lower than the average during any of the Cold War years.
You’re cocksure assertions are naive and uninformed.
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» on 05.03.12 @ 03:05 PM
wireless, you’re a tax-and-spend (on your pet project, the military), tax-and-spend, tax-and-spend advocate.
Every dollar spent on the military would be better spent from the taxpayer who was taxed, not the military. Keep money with the taxpayer, and respect them, don’t lock them up without food and water for 4 days, like the DEA just did to Daniel Chong in San Diego.
The $1.2 trillion or so spent on the military is not chump change. If they can’t survive on $0.5 trillion a year, they are not abstemious enough. No general or admiral should ever do anything but fly commercial coach, and no more shrink-wrapped pallets of $100 bills to gay Afghan warlords.
If we had giant surpluses, by all means, spend on the military. I’m sure the military can do great things, but, *WE SIMPLY DON’T HAVE THE MONEY*. No more charging expenses on credit and giving younger generations the bill.
Definitely cut entitlements too. Cut them all. Name call all you want, but, at the end of the day, WE SIMPLY DON’T HAVE THE MONEY.
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» on 05.03.12 @ 03:46 PM
I read the article abut DEA and Daniel Chong and, in my view, it is further evidence that anything the govt is involved in usually turns to sh*t. It is unbelievable how screwed up this agency is. To add insult to injury, all they can do is apologize to this kid. Heads should roll at the DEA for this mess. In fact, someone there should go to jail for their ineptitude. Believe me, this type of gross incompetence and negligence is commonplace at all govt agencies, federal or local. BTW, the DEA is not the military
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» on 05.03.12 @ 04:21 PM
p, where on earth did you get $1.2T for the DoD budget? That is way off. The FY12 budget baseline DoD was $530B and the supplemental for the wars was $115B.
Often wrong but never in doubt.
Of interest, the payments on the national debt in 2011 was $454B with 3% treasuries. Wait until rates rise. FY2011 Social Security was $725B, Medicare $560, Medicaid $275, other income security (SNAP, unemployment, etc) $405B. Social welfare spending totaled about $2T in 2011 vs. $650B for DoD.
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» on 05.03.12 @ 04:47 PM
Another year of CA at the bottom of the best states for business rankings:
http://chiefexecutive.net/best-worst-states-for-business-2012
I believe this will be like the 9th year…... BTW, TX is number one again.
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» on 05.03.12 @ 06:18 PM
Looks to me like the tab is closer to $1.3 Trillion. Don’t forget the cost of the VA, and interest on Defense-related debt. And I guess those good old nucular bombs cost somethin’ too.
As long as creative young people keep on coming to California and innovating and picking the crops, it’ll do fine. Actually better of the old lemon pusses like us move on to Montana or Texas. Same goes for all the pay-day loan firms and trash processors, brothels, casinos, etc.
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» on 05.04.12 @ 08:34 AM
nice try p, that isn’t how budgeting is done and you don’t get to throw the kitchen sink in the mix. Where did you get this piece of deception?
Regarding CA, if we are forming fewer new companies then fewer young propeller heads will come to CA. We are forming fewer new companies than we were in the past. Recall in 2010 we ended the year with over 4000 fewer companies than what we started the year with. That is a combination of companies leaving, going out of business and fewer new ones being started than we are losing. Never happened here in CA. That’s what happens when make it difficult to do business somewhere, it just moves somewhere where its not so difficult.
You can be in denial all you want about what a mess we’ve created here but there simply is no denying a couple of facts:
1) we have been ranked at the bottom of the business rankings now for a long time
2) the cost of doing business in CA is higher than most other states
3) the regulatory environment is one of the worst in the country
4) the cost of electricity is higher than almost anywhere in the country
5) the cost of living is high
6) schools suck
7) the above things are getting worse, not better
There is a limit to what people are willing to pay for good weather. We have apparently found that limit.
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» on 05.04.12 @ 09:53 AM
I don’t care about budgeting, I care about *actual spending*, wireless, don’t ply your semantic deceptions.
Are you saying that when the Government borrows money to pay for Defense, the interest costs of that borrowing should not be attributed to Defense? If so, can you pay the interest costs of my neighbor’s home loan? Yes or no? (my home loan is long paid off).
Are you saying the cost of the VA should not be attributed to Defense? If we had no Defense we’d not have to pay for the VA. Now I strongly believe we must pay for the VA and if anything it is underfunded.
Conversely, I’m sure there are $100’s of billions in dark defense costs that are not captured by public documents. If you don’t agree with that you are a dupe.
But as Dick Cheney said to Paul O’Neill… `Deficits don’t matter’. I guess you and Dick Cheney believe in tax and spend, tax and spend, spend and spend and spend even though we cut taxes, spend, spend, spend.
It remains a hoot that you, someone who loves Santa Barbara, the most anti-growth and anti-business place in the State, remain worried about the exodus of trash processing and pay-day loan businesses form California. I say: here is a map, clear out, and return California to the 1950’s level of population.
And then the young people who found businesses will never be dissuaded, they love it here. It is just old white complainers and their waste processing businesses that worry too much.
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» on 05.04.12 @ 11:11 AM
p, this is nonsense argument. How do you attribute all that borrowing to DoD? Were it not for all of the other spending DoD would easily be covered. Recall it costs only about 4% of GDP when we generally collect 18% of GDP for taxes. Defense is unquestionably a federal responsibility. We can find a specific article in the Constitution saying so. Social Security, Medicare, welfare, etc. that drives our federal spending to our current 25% of GDP are not enumerated powers under our constitution.
Our defense spending is generated by requirements and our national defense strategy. This is not just some guess, it is the product of centuries of experience and constant analysis of geopolitics, technology, and threats. Cutting it willy-nilly like you lefties want invites disaster. It always has in the past and will again.
Your delusions about CA apparently know no bounds. No amount of information is able to penetrate your brain. Attitudes like yours are why this state is in a massive state of denial and unable to deal with our massive structural problems.
Your obsession with Dick Cheney reveals you to be just another unhinged lefty who hasn’t gotten over the Bush Derangement Syndrome.
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» on 05.04.12 @ 11:39 AM
Hey, you and others were complaining about California being dead when… Facebook was founded! Apple returned! The Ag business flourished anew!
Constitution? The military throughs it out the window every day, and only uses it when it helps their case.
That same constitution gives Congress the power of the purse, and when there is not enough money, they borrow. Some of that borrowing is for the military.
There is interest on that borrowing.
That interest is a military expense.
Cannot believe you think otherwise.
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» on 05.04.12 @ 12:59 PM
p, its very simple. Congress has elected to spend more money than they take in. They are borrowing that extra money and spending it on things that the federal government has no authority under our Constitution to do. Spending that is on things compelled by the Constitution comes first, no? Spending that is not authorized under the contract by which we are supposed to operate our republic is secondary in priority. If that secondary spending blows the budget than that is where the borrowing is applied.
If we had simply followed our Constitution we wouldn’t be in this mess.
PS: the military does not ignore the Constitution.
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» on 05.04.12 @ 02:31 PM
Just a quick point: If you zeroed out the defense budget (P, even you can’t be recommending that), it would only decrease the deficit by 25%. So under a scenario which no one advocates, only a quarter of the interest on the debt could possibly be attributed to the military. In fact, the percentage number is much less than that.
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» on 05.04.12 @ 03:04 PM
I think Congress pretty much decides that one, not you, wireless. Odd that Social Security etc have never been found unconstitutional… as long as Congress approves it, the President signs it, and the Supreme Court doesn’t overturn it, seems to me spending is spending and is all equal. There are not ranks of spending, some of which causes the debt, and some of which does not. They all cost the same dollars.
`Promote the general Welfare’ is right up there with `provide for the common defense’.
And I thought the Constitution doesn’t allow for an Army that persists for more than 2 years at a time anyway. Don’t see any mention of an Air Force or Marines in the Constitution either. But Congress interprets it all, that is their job, they balance `general Welfare’ with `common defense’ but the bottom line is, they cost the same $ and contribute proportionately to the debt.
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» on 05.04.12 @ 03:06 PM
BTW… the figure is from the OMB. I don’t argue for zeroing defense, particularly on US Soil. But shrink-wrapped pallets of $100 bills for homosexual Afghan warlords? Goodness gracious, let’s stop that right now. Bases in Germany? Sorry, no more, they have way more disposable $ than the US right now.
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» on 05.11.12 @ 03:05 PM
CA exports: People and jobs
behold the ugly data, not the wishful thinking of p and friends.
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» on 05.11.12 @ 09:18 PM
Boy, those young people in CA that p is counting on to save us are really tearing it up:
http://www.ocregister.com/news/students-353581-state-scores.html
47th in the country in science and math
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» on 05.13.12 @ 08:43 PM
California has 30 times the population of Montana and 6 times the population of Massachusetts… so even though our rates of passing science exams are 1/2 those of Montana or Massachusetts, there are 3 or 15 times as many capable grads as in either of those States. And then after they graduate in Mass or Montana they move here anyway.
California is too crowded, except perhaps Santa Barbara, SLO, and Monterey, which is why you say you love Santa Barbara, wireless. So what do you care if all the bail bond and trash processing and payday loan companies flee California? Less crowded conditions for you.
And the people who create a vast amount of new wealth in California are young Mexicans who perform terribly on our tests, but work like crazy picking the California crops. If you love new ag wealth, you must love poor performance on tests, Wireless.
Not that I’ve ever said all was well in California, it isn’t. But if every white person over 60 moved away, this place would be a lot better. I’m in that category.
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» on 05.13.12 @ 09:56 PM
Too many lazy people on the dole—end of story on the nanny af nanny states.
Now the red ink hits 16 Billion instead of 9 Billion, someone needs to be fired. Cut all their staff salaries, perks, cars, early retirement,spiking of wages the last year, the list goes on and on.
Calif is toast..Greece..
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» on 05.13.12 @ 10:24 PM
“But if every white person over 60 moved away, this place would be a lot better.”
Yes, let us continue having a discussion.
“But if every Mexican over 60 moved away this place would be a lot better.”
Why are you singling out old white people?
Are old Mexicans superior to old white people?
Oh wait, they don’t have money.
Yes, let’s send all the rich people to other states and countries.
That will surely help with California’s problems.
What an effing racist.
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» on 05.14.12 @ 09:25 AM
If any of you are wondering why CA, with all its natural advantages, is in so much trouble, behold exhibit A: publius with the small p.
He represents a sizable portion of our population that is living in complete and utter denial. This population keeps electing people like Das Williams and Lois Capps and Helene Schneider and Barbara Boxer and Jerry Brown. Politicians that think outlawing plastic grocery bags and keeping people from drilling our oil and building a high speed choo-choo train we can’t afford and nobody wants are more important goals than balancing our budgets.
No amount of information can knock them out of their leftist stupor. So p tells us not worry that we’re broke, we’re losing more business than we are creating, that we have capital flight out of CA, that we have a net out-migration of native born Americans out of CA, that our schools suck, our roads suck, we have probably $500B+ of unfunded pension liabilities, that we have 1/3rd of the nation’s welfare cases but only about 10% of the population, etc. Everything is just fine because we have facebook.
I know this won’t knock p of his intellectually precarious perch but over the weekend we learn that this year’s CA budget deficit has doubled due to revenue shortfalls. By our Constitution in CA we aren’t even allowed to run a deficit, yet we have for years. We now have a lower bond rating than Iraq.
Naturally, we taxpayers are to blame for this madness, you see if we just tax the declining population of rich people just a little bit more all our problems will be solved. If not we have to lay off a bunch of cops, firefighters and teachers.
Things are just peachy and we are such a healthy trajectory!
Beam me up Scotty
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» on 05.14.12 @ 11:14 AM
Waah-waah-waah-whine-moan=wireless
Maybe you can cry a few tears too. With you the world is always going to hell, and you gotta blame the people you don’t like. Waah-waah-waah.
You are the hate-america crowd. Feel free to move to Austria or Germany or Norway or Singapore or wherever… then no-one will have to put up with your negative whining.
And you love Santa Barbara because of all the no-growth politics, and then you turn around and blame it for your whining. Move down to Bunker Hill in LA if you want the real California, or maybe to Hunter’s Point in SF.
Want to solve California’s pension problems? Easy as pie, tax all pensioners 99% on income over, say, $50K a year. They earned their pensions but they kicked all of California’s problems down the road and now want the $ but not the responsibility.
Call me racist or spacist or doofis, whatever, it is the grumpy white people who are complaining and not out hustling and picking the crop (and thus making new wealth), or founding new businesses.
You guys hate spirited entrepreneurs who create new businesses and new wealth. I love them and they are the long term solution, not the problem. Amazing how you guys hate hard work and innovation.
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» on 05.14.12 @ 11:27 AM
“Want to solve California’s pension problems? Easy as pie, tax all
pensioners 99% on income over, say, $50K a year. They earned their pensions
but they kicked all of California’s problems down the road and now want the
$ but not the responsibility.”
Wow, the p-man is actually putting forth some mathematically-oriented solutions here.
Perhaps there is hope for California yet.
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» on 05.14.12 @ 12:03 PM
QED
Proved with own incoherent rants for all to see for themselves. As predicted, the denial continues…... Oh yeah, and all problems can be solved with more taxes.
So p, tax all pensioners at 99% over $50K huh? Suppose they move to Nevada, then what are you going to do? They are still contractually owed their pensions. So all the retired CHP and teachers leave the state and get their checks and you can’t tax it because they don’t live here.
This is the kind of brilliant thinking that has us circling the drain.
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» on 05.14.12 @ 01:15 PM
little p is more interested in lambasting old white people than actually finding genuine solutions to the mess we are in.
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» on 05.14.12 @ 02:35 PM
California Dreamin’
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» on 05.14.12 @ 02:37 PM
Hey, I’m an old white guy too. I know we’re mostly complainers and not doers
So change the tax laws so that CalPERS or CalSTRS or UCRS or a local pension system, all in-state ladlers of public pension pork, must withhold the tax before they send out the check. Just like corporations can be in the nexus of the state and subject to state taxation, so can pensioners.
And if they want to move out of State, great, good, terrific, tax their public pension income nonetheless. If they’re smart they’ll move to a country with a real health care system, like Canada or Norway or France.
Sure, California’s performance is sinking, because Wireless, you want real wealth creation, which generally comes from impoverished people like miners and farm workers working like machines to pick the crops or jackhammer the rock or load the skip underground. Hard work does not necessitate good education skills.
As for hard work and innovation in the technological sense, California is doing fine, and would do a lot better if all the grouchy old farts would clear out.
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» on 05.14.12 @ 03:15 PM
California received an F grade in being one of the worst states to be a small business owner, according to a survey of over 6,000 small businesses conducted by Thumbtack.com.
Get that p: 6000 small businesses, the ones that actually grow and hire people. Small businesses = start-ups. You can keep sticking your head in the ground but the facts are against you and evidence is overwhelming. Ignoring problems is not a good plan.
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» on 05.15.12 @ 08:01 AM
Lots of regions of California got A’s from thumbtack… particularly the San Francisco Bay Area. Tends to be the conservative regions in the Central Valley that got the worst grades. Great comment from a guy in Santa Maria on how easy it was to set up a business.
Wireless the whiner loves to complain. Why not just move away to Texas, Wireless? If you love it here (in low-growth, pro-environment Santa Barbara) why can you just be honest with yourself and say California is pretty great.
Instead you hate California, and endlessly complain about it. I think either you should grow up and quit the whining, or clear out.
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» on 05.15.12 @ 08:57 AM
Somehow I have the feeling that little publius has plenty of money. California’s business success does not matter to him because, in his own words, he just “an old white guy” and California would be better off if “every white person over 60 left the state.”
Hey pewbius, if you care about California so much, maybe you should take your own advice and LEAVE.
California would be a lot better off without a bunch of smug, self-loathing, arrogant, financially secure, delusional old white men.
That doesn’t include all old white men. Just old white men like you.
See, it’s types like YOU that are the problem.
But wireless should have the last word, frankly he has schooled you beyond belief and you really should find something better to do with your (apparently) ample time.
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» on 05.15.12 @ 09:03 AM
publius, go live in one of the central valley farming communities, and then maybe I will respect you.
Have you visited Fresno recently?
Yeah, I didn’t think so.
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» on 05.15.12 @ 09:06 AM
16 Reasons to Move Away from California
http://www.yolohub.com/economy/16-reasons-to-move-away-from-california
(editors, please feel free to remove my previous two angry comments—if I had the financial security that little p has, I would not be bothering with making comments on this website)
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» on 05.15.12 @ 09:21 AM
p, since when is it whining to point out obvious problems and try to fix them? Despite your childish insistence to the contrary, our state is badly under performing its potential, that is not even arguable and we are heading in the wrong direction.
Even New Jersey is doing better, that’s embarrassing:
ps, I’m not that old and I’ve started two high tech companies so maybe I know a little bit about what I’m talking about.
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» on 05.15.12 @ 01:54 PM
Sink with California:
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/299947/sink-california-editors
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» on 05.15.12 @ 02:20 PM
Here’s another article with some interesting, albeit depressing, data on the trends here in CA:
All self-inflicted wounds by our progressive government
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» on 05.15.12 @ 05:49 PM
Rather than emotional anti-California Screeds…. take a look at some real data… like Venture Capital Investment/person….
https://www.pwcmoneytree.com/MTPublic/ns/nav.jsp?page=historical
California.. averaging over last 5 quarters…. (all of 2011 and FQ 2012)...
$380/person/year was invested in new ventures in California
only $60/person/year was invested in new ventures in Texas
and $54/person/year was invested in new ventures in New Jersey.
Remember that California’s population includes way, way more undocumented workers who pick the crop than do Texas or New Jersey… but our per capita venture capital investment dwarfs either of those darlings of the conservative nattering nabob sphere…
Won’t here wireless or Schincter say anything about Venture Capital investment in California… like the priests who looked into Galileo’s telescope and refused to agree they saw the moons of Jupiter.
Now I’ve actually proposed a few good ways to fix California’s deficits… like… tax public pensions over $50K/year, have a total flat tax on gross income (no deductions or anything allowed) of 15%, etc. California has some big problems. But all the second-rate states like New Jersey and Texas are always trying to win the beauty contest and rag on California, but he Venture Capitalists know… we are the place to be.
And if you don’t like it, Wireless and Schincter, don’t let the door bruise your bum on the way out of California to Texas or New Jersey.
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» on 05.15.12 @ 05:50 PM
Let me re-emphasize that
http://goldenstateoutlook.wordpress.com/2012/04/04/c
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» on 05.15.12 @ 06:07 PM
Oh yes, look at Computer Systems Design and Scientific & Technical Services Employment in California…
http://www.californiaforecast.com/newsletter/May 2012.pdf
Prepare to avert your eyes, Wireless and Schincter, it is good news for California! Now Semiconductor Mfg is not so great, but, the number of jobs is and always was a lot less than in the first two categories.
It is a young person’s game in California…
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» on 05.15.12 @ 09:20 PM
p,
Venture investment in other parts of the country used to be zero. 20 years ago nobody invested in TX, now many people do. 20 years ago, nearly all new startups were in CA, not true today. Venture Capital investment has always been primarily in Silicon Valley, they invented it. The point is capital is moving elsewhere at an increasing pace. Even companies that start in CA very often expand elsewhere.
Secondly, you cannot make an economy work when the only new businesses are concentrated in one or two small area of the state. I will remind you, yet again, that we had in 2010 4600 net business losses. Social media startups are not going to support this state and our 30M+ residents and the social welfare and pension loads we have. Manufacturing startups rarely expand in CA. Even “green” companies bolt. High taxes, high regulation and dysfunctional government is a recipe for stagnation, ask our European friends. I do startups myself, I’m telling you we are slowly strangling the goose that lays the golden eggs.
The proof is in the pudding. I’m not going to regurgitate the list of horribles that have been amply pointed out but we are badly lagging. We used to lead the country out of recessions, now we are the last out. We used to have the best of everything from schools to infrastructure, now it is the worst or near the worst.
It appears you will keep your head up your rectum, you must enjoy the view.
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» on 05.15.12 @ 10:23 PM
Uh… less than 1/4 of the venture capital went into software… much more went into Biotech, Energy, and Medical Devices. Sorry, Wireless, you are blowing hot air.
You will make a dark cloud out of every bright sunny day.
You totally overlooked the impressive job growth in California in Computer Systems Design and also in Scientific Jobs.
You know everything I guess, except, how to drive out on Interstate 10 and move to Texas so as to make yourself happy.
But you love Santa Barbara, actually, the most no-growth, enviro-happy place on the planet. And do you enjoy it? No, you just complain, whine, mope, and act like a defeatist.
I don’t care if you think my head is where the sun don’t shine, you would complain and mope if the bright sun shined in your eyes. And in up here I’m with the folks who invested $14 billion in California ventures in the last year or so… while in Texas only about $1 billion got invested. Never see that fact in your conservative hate-CAlifornia screeds, because they make no pretense of being fair or accurate; they would know fairness if it fell on their head like a boulder.
I can’t imagine why you just don’t clear out to Dallas or Houston, you’d be way happier, you hate California.
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» on 05.15.12 @ 10:56 PM
So p,
If things are so rosy here, why do we have so many financial problems? Why is our budget so out of whack when that is not the case in other states? Why are other states growing and we aren’t? Why do we have a net outflow of US born citizens? Why do we have an outsized share of welfare beneficiaries? Why do we have the lowest credit rating of any state? Why is our pension system hopelessly underwater? Why are we losing more businesses than we are creating? Why is our unemployment rate almost the worst in the country? That was never the case before. Why do our schools rank at the bottom when they used to be at the top? I could go on and on.
My point is, which you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge is that we are not on a good glide path. We do have a lot of startups, mine included, but the general trend is poor. Software companies are not going to carry the state. In a state with 30M+ people, a few hundred thousand of them employed in software companies is not going to do it. Our economy which used to be robust and balanced, is not anymore and we are seeing it with our tax receipts. We strangle our energy production, harass our farmers, drive out manufacturing enterprises and increase the cost of doing business enticing companies to leave. And they do.
About the only thing CA has going anymore is tech and was not the case not too long ago. They start here but expand elsewhere. That is not a sustainable model. Just look at our state’s balance sheet.
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» on 05.16.12 @ 05:43 AM
I’ve never said that California is perfect, or lacks problems. In fact, for many of the problems you endlessly complain about, I’ve proposed solutions. You don’t, you just love to complain, wireless.
As I said, less than 1/4 of venture capital is going into software, but you don’t listen, wireless, you just want to complain.
New jobs in computer hardware and scientific analysis are sharply rising… you don’t listen, because you only want to run California down.. you have no hope, no esprit de Corps, you are just a downer who should move to Houston or Hoboken.
Running around like a chicken with you head cut off wailing solves nothing, wireless.
As for our schools: they are a problem, but we also have some of the very best schools in the Country, like Lowell High School, or even Dos Pueblos. A lot of our school problems are associated with wealth creation: we need millions of people to pick our crop, and recent immigrants are the wealth creators who get the job done. They are usually undocumented. You love wealth creation but won’t spend an instant trying to solve the basic problem that wealth creation via agriculture brings lots of uneducated low wage workers into our state. You complain but don’t roll up your sleeves and try to solve things. Perhaps Dallas or Jersey City would be a better place for you.
You completely support transfer of billions of dollars to Afghan Warlord pederasts based on running the US economy into debt… you’ve argued that debt to pay Afghans is protected by the US constitution. But if US Taxes stay inside the US, you hate that… no constitutional mandate in your opinion to spend US Taxpayers money inside the US. You want it all going to Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt, Israel, etc. You just hate US Citizens.
And if the US military kills US Citizens without any trial, you love that. Not one objection from you, and you shout at anyone who tries to support the US Constitution as leftists, pinkos, gays, liberals, child molesters, whatever you can think of.
Enjoy Atlantic City and Galveston, wireless.
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» on 05.16.12 @ 10:35 AM
So p,
You like to cite the few good things happening in this state as evidence everything is going to be just fine. So let’s do a little exercise in logic and reasoning:
If all we need is Venture Capital investment and young propeller heads and we have lots of these things happening as we speak and have for some time, why is it the state economy continues to lag so badly? Why are tax revenues depressed? Why is unemployment about the worst in the country? Why are other states growing and we aren’t? Answer: even if everything you assert is true, it is not adequate provide broad economic prosperity in the state. The numbers speak for themselves.
I’m not whining, I’m pointing out irrefutable facts. We’re broke - Fact. Regulation and cost of doing business are chasing companies out of CA - Fact. From 2000-2009 CA led the nation in new business creation, in 2010 it was dead last and lost a net 4600 businesses - Fact. Despite the fine program at DP CA schools on balance suck, they are like 48th nationally - Fact. We have social welfare obligations that greatly exceed our ability to pay - Fact. We have about 12% of the population and 33% of the welfare cases - Fact. We have about $500B of unfunded pension liabilities - Fact. There are many more. When the fundamental underpinnings of a functioning economy and society are creaking like CA’s that does not inspire confidence in the future.
You like to focus on a few diamonds in the cesspool while ignoring the cesspool itself. We have so many natural advantages here, we should be doing much better. We are badly, badly under performing our potential, you want to ignore that inconvenient fact.
There was a study commissioned by the SBA a few years back. In it they looked at the cost of regulation on job creation. They just looked at regulations that no other state had and concluded that just those excess regulations cost CA 4M jobs. How much better shape would we be in if 4M more of our citizens were working instead of collecting benefits?
Have fun in that happy place in your progressive mind, otherwise known as La-la land.
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» on 05.16.12 @ 09:47 PM
We are not broke… when we’re broke, police and prison guards, not to mention teachers and planners and tax collectors will be paid with vouchers and not $.
That is not yet what is happening… and that is a fact.
I remember in the 1990’s for a while when energy prices were low Texas had deep problems, because they are so dependent on energy. Nobody seems to remember that, but I do. Right now the Texas economy looks good because energy prices are high. Not because of their great policies or politics.
All sorts of insignificant states like North Dakota (smaller than one supervisorial district in Los Angeles) seem to have momentarily good economies, but they are minor in terms of $ and population. It is not a fair comparison.
And California has two strikes against it that you resolutely fail to recognize: the housing bubble was very bad here, and all sorts of dependent businesses have been terribly impacted by that. Second, we have lots of low-education manual labor, often undocumented immigrants, who drag down all of our performance measures.
But they add the type of wealth you love… we exploit them and turn around and give the profits to richer people (hey like me) or spend the $, with your support, through military bribes of gay warlords in Afghanistan, or through killing American Citizens without regard for the Constitution.
Rather than spending it on a serious public education system in California…
Also many of the you love states, such as Texas and Florida, do way better at getting their federal tax dollars returned by in-state spending by the Federal Government. Texas has a much bigger Federal pork uptake system, since the days of Lyndon Johnson, and their so-called free market system is really lipstick on a pig of federal pork.
But I always say California has some problems. I am an optimist, you are devoutly pessimistic, and you never answer the obvious: why don’t you just move out to Houston or Dallas where you’d be way happier? Clear out and get happy, and quit your tiresome complaining.
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» on 05.17.12 @ 10:35 AM
Let’s define broke. We are taking in a lot less money than we are spending. Our credit is in the toilet. We have contractual obligations for current and future outlays that we cannot meet and there is no viable path to meet them going forward. If an individual or company found themselves in this situation they would be bankrupt and headed for bankruptcy court. Ergo, they are broke.
Unfortunately, CA can’t avail itself of the bankruptcy process as there is nothing in the bankruptcy code to handle a sovereign debt failure. Counties and municipalities can but not states.
I have pointed out repeatedly the problem with our population. How many times have I pointed out that we have 12% of the population and 33% of the welfare cases? Why do we have such an outsized proportion of welfare beneficiaries? I have a theory: it’s because we offer such generous welfare benefits which we can’t afford. I saw an analysis a few weeks ago that showed a family of four in CA, if they avail themselves of the available programs, can get the equivalent of $60K worth of food stamps, rent subsidies, MediCal, welfare, etc. Why work if you can get that much free stuff?
Do you see the nitwits in Sacramento, or DC for that matter, doing anything about this clearly unaffordable path? Do you see the nitwits in Sacramento dealing in a serious way with the completely unaffordable pension obligations we have? I don’t. No, they spend us into oblivion and come back asking for more money from the taxpayers. They regulate businesses out of our state and wonder why tax revenues suck and unemployment remains high.
I am an optimist as well. You would never do a start-up company if you weren’t as the odds of failure are much higher than the odds of success. But I am a realist and I can add and subtract. You on the other hand ignore reality and try and wave it away.
I know we can do so much better than we are, that is why I am so pissed about this situation. It is a self-inflicted and unnecessary wound that is hurting way too many people. Wishing it away won’t work. It requires policy changes which I don’t see anyone in this state getting serious about. Indeed, I see the opposite: more stupid rules, more spending proposals, more taxing. The self-delusion and self-destruction continues unabated.
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» on 05.17.12 @ 02:15 PM
Some interesting data in here on who’s leaving:
Our very own Greece:
http://spectator.org/archives/2012/05/17/our-very-own-greece
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» on 05.17.12 @ 03:23 PM
If anyone following this thread and reading all of Wireless’s attachments think Ca. is doing fine, they are hopelessly deluding themselves. We are surely heading for a disaster and there seems to be no one in charge who has a clue of how to fix it. The sixteen billion dollar deficit just announced is the tip of the iceberg. I would be very nervous if you own Ca. muni bonds.
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» on 05.17.12 @ 08:00 PM
Innumeracy, hate, bottomless pessimism, and shallowness… the four horseman of wireless and lou segals pretend apocalypse for California.
I’m the only one who proposes tax withheld right upon issuing public pension checks, due to the nexus of business generating that income in California. I’d tax public pensions over $50K, progressively… above $150K (public pensions) at 80 or 90%. You guys flap your gums and fingers but don’t propose anything to fix the public pension problems of California.
That American Spectator article is innumerate.
Greece’s National Budget… $150 billion/year (source, CIA fact book)
Greece’s GDP: $312 billion/year (same source)
The Greek Government spends 48% of its GDP on Government. The
debt of $30 billion/year (same source) represents 9.6% of GDP.
California’s State Budget: $91 billion/year (source, Wikipedia)
California’s GSP: $1,940 billion/year (same source)
The California Government spends 4.7% of its GSP on government.
That is 1/10 of Greece, for goodness sakes!!!!
Then the State deficit of $16 billion (about 1/2 of Greece) is 0.8%
of California’s GSP.
Also, 1/10 of Greece, for goodness sakes!!!
The American Spectator article makes a mishmash and compares
Greeks’s debt as a % of its ***GDP*** (9.6%) and to California
debt as a % of its much lower ***GOVERNMENT BUDGET***.
The proper comparison is to compare debt as % of GDP to % of GSP, which
is 9.6% for Greece and 0.8% for California.
What claptrap; just because wireless and lou segal never got a good numerical education they can’t understand this simple comparison; they are innumerate and thus subject to being stampeded by demagogues.
Now I think California’s debt is a problem and I propose a solution for the long term pension debt. Wireless and Lou Segal are innumerate and don’t get it.
Please, please, follow your hearts and move to Texas and New Jersey. Lots of nice toxic waste slag heaps to live next to in New Jersey, and in Texas you can live right next to a big noisy oil well. Then you won’t have to complain about the enviros in Santa Barbara County.
And no wonder you don’t understand that the Aghan and Iraq wars wasted trillions of dollars. You don’t know what a trillion is, or a billion, or a million. Please, please, move to Hoboken or Houston and `help’ those places with your innumeracy.
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» on 05.17.12 @ 08:43 PM
p, do you know what we spend on government?
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» on 05.17.12 @ 09:49 PM
The California State Budget is $91 billion/year, can you read, wireless?
Your question is so poorly formed you’d flunk 4th grade.
Do you mean all forms government, from local special districts like the Vandenberg Community Service District all the way up to the United Nations? Or the topic of the Spectator article, which was, after, just *STATE* Government of California compared to the *NATIONAL* Government of Greece…. the regions, prefectures, and municipalities of Greece were, as far as I know, not included.
But that is your way: change the goal posts, dissemble, quote innumerate statistics…. you’d be so much happier living in Waco or Asbury Park where you could have a love fest with Christie or that genius Rick Perry.
You hate Santa Barbara County so much, why not clear out? That is, if you even live in Santa Barbara. Probably you are and astroturf funded East Indian posting comments for $0.30 an hour, paid for by some conservative donor group.
If you’ve founded two high-tech companies, post their names and phone numbers here! Most likely a complete lie.
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» on 05.17.12 @ 10:39 PM
settle down p. Perhaps I need to be a little more specific. You said Greece spends 48% of its GDP on Government, what is it here? You brought it up, not me.
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» on 05.18.12 @ 12:32 AM
Answer your own question… the innumerate Spectator article you quoted set the comparison: Greece compared to California, National government of Greece versus *STATE* government of California.
You brought that up, not me. Don’t dissemble, change the goalposts, etc.
As if you even live in Santa Barbara County or have started any companies. Name them if you have.
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» on 05.18.12 @ 10:57 AM
In the US our total portion the is consumed by government at all levels (Federal, state, local) is about 40%. Not far behind Greece.
Have fun in your happy place
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» on 05.18.12 @ 12:15 PM
Uh… you are comparing apples and oranges. You have not included prefecture and municipal government spending for Greece.
Your happy place is: innumeracy and demagoguery.
I don’t think you even live in California, you are just agitating for business to leave California and come to whatever benighted godforsaken place like Hoboken or Jersey City you live in, wireless.
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» on 05.18.12 @ 01:01 PM
Total Ca. public debt including unfunded pension liabilities is approaching 50% of GDP. Unlike the federal govt, Ca can’t print money, so there will be more taxes and spending cuts. Expect a lot more pain to be afflicted on the residents before we see any solution.
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» on 05.18.12 @ 10:14 PM
Are you unclear on the concept, lou segal? You seem utterly unable to compare apples and apples.
The Greek National debt is about 142% of their GDP, and does not include all the local (prefectural and municipal) pension debt, which is included in CalPERS. So who knows… the total Greek debt including local obligations might be 300% or more of their GDP which would be a more fair comparison with the California debt.
Which is not so say that California is in good shape, which is why I strongly support taxing public pension benefits above about $50K/year, in a strongly progressive manner.
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» on 05.19.12 @ 03:29 PM
more madness from our geniuses in Sacramento
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» on 05.20.12 @ 08:40 PM
Good read
http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/brown-354899-california-tax.html
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» on 05.21.12 @ 12:59 PM
You can replay this story all over CA to see why we are in trouble:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/05/california_dreamin_a_nightmare_of_collapse.html
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» on 05.21.12 @ 01:29 PM
Only 16 states have gained jobs since Obama became President. CA isn’t one of them:
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» on 05.21.12 @ 03:52 PM
More dissembling and diversions from Lou Segal and wireless…. why not answer first, `What are the prefectural and municipal debts incurrent in Greece? ’ Only then can your earlier faulty claims about Greece/California comparisons be rendered useful.
Unfortunately, you are unable to make sober, apples-to-apples comparisons.
Also, wireless, state your county of Residency and State of Residency. I don’t think you live in Santa Barbara County or California. State the name and addresses or contact phone numbers of the businesses you claim to have started up.
Until you post that info, please stop the spam links you keep posting.
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» on 05.21.12 @ 04:41 PM
P,
You may not like Wireless’s links, but there is overwhelming evidence from countless sources that Ca is the most badly mismanaged, fiscally irresponsible state in the country. Illinois (Obama’s home state) is a close second.
If you are going to demand that Wireless reveal his identity, maybe it would be helpful to tell us how you make a living. It seems like the increasing state and local taxes, regulatory burdens, and very unfriendly business climate have not affected you. Usually people this smug have received an inheritance from their parents and, therefore, have no empathy for people who are self-employed that have to put up with the nonsense in this state. Just like Molly Munger (her father is Buffett’s billionaire partner) attempting to raise taxes on all Californians who have to work every day to keep their heads above water.
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» on 05.21.12 @ 05:50 PM
I never said I don’t like any of those links.
I just don’t believe that you or wireless are actually Santa Barbara County residents, or, that wireless has really founded 2 businesses.
I don’t need to know anybody’s identity. Just want to verify the claims that you guys have made… if you don’t want anyone to try to verify, don’t bring up in the first place the issue of… businesses found, where you live, etc.
Me? I’m over 50, I inherited less than $100K, but I have saved at least 20 times that through frugal living. Anybody who saves a lot in California is lead to municipal bonds, and I was. I definitely live on the South Coast… if you want to to prove to me you do, why not fill in the XXXX in this list:
Refugio, XXXX, Gibraltar
In any case, why don’t you give the debt amounts for prefectural and municipal debts in Greece? You made a big deal of comparing CalPERS debt to California’s GSP; CalPERS debt includes lots of local pensions. But you did not include the local portion of Greece’s debt. Why not just answer the question?
Instead you zoom around amongst demagogue inspired half truths. No wonder you are always so pessimistic, anti-american, and downers. If you even live in Santa Barbara County you should just move to Houston or Hoboken, where you can have a love-fest with the Republican governors.
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» on 05.21.12 @ 06:50 PM
Okay,P, I was wrong, you’re not smug just a hypocrite. You are fine with the high taxes in Ca, as long you don’t have to pay them. No, you take advantage of the biggest loophole in the tax code: Ca. municipal bonds. People who start businesses or only have earned income actually have to pay taxes unlike you. Until you pay the 10% state tax or 35% fed tax, I think you need to shut up about this issue.
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» on 05.21.12 @ 06:59 PM
Here’s another link you aren’t going to like. The CTA, the worst union in America that has betrayed our children:
http://www.city-journal.org/2012/22_2_california-teachers-association.html
BTW, its none of your business where I live or what my business is but rest assured I live on the south coast and have for a couple of decades. Some of my favorite local dining establishments include the Nugget, Brophy’s, Palace, Ca Dario and Los Agaves on Milpas. I’m a local. Why would anyone that didn’t live here read Noozhawk anyway? Use a little common sense.
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» on 05.21.12 @ 08:31 PM
Here is another one detailing the out of control spending in Sacramento:
http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=3321
Meanwhile they pass bills to regulate babysitting. God help us.
So p, question for you. We have an primary election coming up. Who are you supporting for state senate? If the Democrats win this seat they will very likely have a 2/3rds super majority in both the assembly and senate. Meaning they can raise taxes with impunity. Your choices are Jason Hodge (D), Hannah-Beth “Taxin” Jackson (D) and Mike Stoker (R). This senate seat held by a Republican is our only firewall to tax madness.
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» on 05.21.12 @ 08:35 PM
Here is an interesting article on Prop 13 and taxes paid:
http://blog.independent.org/2012/05/15/the-property-tax-panacea/
You want to see real estate crash repeal Prop 13…..
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» on 05.21.12 @ 09:31 PM
And once again, wireless and Lou Segal don’t answer the simple question… what is Greeks *total* debt, including all local debts. They want to compare an apple (California *total* debt including lots of local pension debt handled by CalPERS) to an orange (Greece’s national level debt, not including its local pension debt).
You’ll never answer the question. And wireless, you claimed you founded 2 local high tech businesses, just name them.
Want to convince me…. fill in XXXX in the sequence Refugio, XXXX, Gibraltar, YYYY
extra credit for YYYY
Restaurants are easy to google.
I vote absentee weeks early. Wrote in B. L, liked him back when.
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» on 05.21.12 @ 10:04 PM
If one were to drive up Refugio, past the Circle Bar-B Ranch and the magnificent Reagan Ranch (which I’ve been privileged to visit a couple of times), up to Camino Cielo you can take a right and drive along the top of the ridge all the way to Gibraltar, after crossing 154 and back behind the Riviera in SB and catch Foothill to go home. Fabulous views of both sides of the mountain. The SY Valley, Cachuma, and Gibraltar reservoirs. Sometimes you can catch gliders out of SY airport over the Reagan Ranch and hang gliders and paragliders jumping off the ridge. Done it on my Harley many times, though I usually go up Gibraltar to Camino Cielo past Winchester Gun Club and Painted Cave then catch 154 down to Stagecoach to grab a beer and try-tip sandwich at Cold Springs Tavern and listen to Kenny Sulton play blues. Then take Old San Marcos Pass, very fun road.
I live here knucklehead.
PS, who is BL? Some marxist?
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» on 05.22.12 @ 06:36 AM
And once again, wireless and Lou Segal don’t answer the simple question… what is Greeks *total* debt, including all local debts. They want to compare an apple (California *total* debt including lots of local pension debt handled by CalPERS) to an orange (Greece’s national level debt, not including its local pension debt).
I’m sure the insults will start soon that I am `obsessed’ because they simply can’t make an appropriate and accurate comparison.
``Gibraltar to Camino Cielo past Winchester Gun Club and Painted Cave’’ really? sure about that wireless?
Bob Lagormarsino
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» on 05.23.12 @ 02:33 PM
at least we found one thing to agree on, Bob Lagomarsino is a great guy and was an excellent representative
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» on 05.23.12 @ 04:18 PM
Wireless, when I first moved here Bob Lagomarsino was our Congressman and, shortly thereafter, Michael and Arianna Huffington move into a big estate in Montecito. They immediately set their sights on this Congressional seat and spent a huge amount of money defeating Lagomarsino in the primary. Many of the Republicans, particularly in Montecito, all deserted Lagomarsino. The Huffington’s wined and dined many of the old line Republicans at their estate and were able to dazzle them with their wealth. I knew at the time they were trouble and couldn’t be trusted. Well you probably know the rest of the story. Huffington ran against Feinstein and Walter Capps became our next Congressman, followed by Lois. Since then I lost whatever respect I had for the Republican establishment in Santa Barbara.
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» on 05.23.12 @ 09:30 PM
The two most mismanaged states in the country.
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» on 05.23.12 @ 09:35 PM
Once again we have found common ground. Lago is great guy, a gentlemen and a competent representative. I totally agree with you about Huffington, what a disaster. I also agree generally about the SB Co. GOP, the wounds from the Huffington debacle are still there but they are slowly coming around. At least the central committee rejected Abel.
As bad as the GOP is the Democrats are worse, way worse. They are populated by basically Marxists IMHO. Their central committee head Daraka Larimore-Hall is real marxist as far as I can tell. Das Williams is as well. Hannah-Beth Jackson is no better and Lois is simply clueless and just reads her Pelosi provided cue cards. Embarrassing frankly.
Maldonado is another disaster for the GOP in my opinion. The last thing the GOP needs is another black eye like Arnold (and Abel) have given them. Abel cares about Abel first, he’s proved that. I’m voting for Mitchum, at least he’s running for the right reasons. Stoker for State Senate. No on Prop 28 and 29.
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» on 05.23.12 @ 11:17 PM
Yeah, I am going to vote for Mitchum too. Have you seen any polls in this race. I wonder who is running stronger against Capps. I hope Mitchum can attract Independents to beat Capps. Maldonado is claiming he will attract more support from this important group. What’s your take.
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» on 05.24.12 @ 08:27 AM
Yet again, wireless and Lou Segal don’t answer the simple question… what is Greeks *total* debt, including all local debts. They want to compare an apple (California *total* debt including lots of local pension debt handled by CalPERS) to an orange (Greece’s national level debt, not including its local pension debt).
I’m sure the insults will start soon that I am `obsessed’ because they simply can’t make an appropriate and accurate comparison.
wireless is pretty clearly not from this area, or he would have known BL and would not have given a rambling, geographically inaccurate answer to the simply sequence,
Refugio, XXXXXX, Gibraltar, YYYYYY
He never will answer directly an succinctly because he is unable, and similar unable to think clearly and accurately about numbers. Just a little speck or leaf buffeted by the strong winds of professional blowhards.
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» on 05.24.12 @ 08:55 AM
p, grow up. We know you’d rather not talk about the mess CA is in and would love to focus on Greece or Refugio or anything else that isn’t the topic of this article. We’ve provided you example after example of the self-inflicted train wreck that is CA but you’ve made it abundantly clear you’d rather keep your head up your keister and whistle past the graveyard. Suit yourself but you’re boring me.
Lou, whichever Republican runs against Lois it will be competitive just based on the registration. It is about a 3.5% Democrat registration advantage in the new district (vs. 20% in the old district) and Republicans tend to turn out a little better so it will be a 2-3 point race. Abel is the weaker candidate in my opinion because a lot of Republicans won’t vote for him due to his treachery in Sacramento and the vote to increase our taxes after promising not to. He did to get the open primary on the ballot which also pisses people off. Then Arnold the disaster named him to be Lt. Gov. The whole thing stinks. What I hear is that Abel and Mitchum are running about even in the primary.
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» on 05.24.12 @ 12:15 PM
And yet another time, wireless and Lou Segal don’t answer the simple question… what is Greeks *total* debt, including all local debts. They want to compare an apple (California *total* debt including lots of local pension debt handled by CalPERS) to an orange (Greece’s national level debt, not including its local pension debt).
The insults haven’t quite started, just claims that it is `boring’ to ask them for solid, careful information.
The many links you spam to this website are just sound and fury, signifying nothing… you are innumerate and incapable of distinguishing careful, hard work from blowhard random facts and statistics.
And you aren’t even from the South Coast, wireless, if you are in California at all.
Now California has real problems, and they’ll never get solved by wingnuts like you and lou segal. As Einstein said, ever problem has a simple *and wrong* solution. That is your specialty.
You just want to pump up godforsaken places like Houston and Hoboken… probably you’re paid for by their Chambers of Commerce.
You don’t know our local geography at all (Winchester Gun Club before Painted Cave when traveling west?) or our local politicians (Bob Lagomarsino). You should stop posting your spam, not because of its viewpoint, because you are a fake.
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» on 05.24.12 @ 01:47 PM
P, I answered this lame-brained question of yours a while back, but for some reason it escaped your small mind. Greece and California are both experiencing serious deficits that must be financed one way or another. In both cases, they don’t have the capacity to print money and monetize the debt or just inflate their currency to pay the debt back with cheaper money. So the only alternative for both is to either cut spending and/or raise taxes. It is called austerity and will inflict much pain while impeding any growth in their economies. The only answer for Ca. and Greece is to make their economies more competitive and neither is willing to do so.
If I was you, I would keep my mouth shut about Wireless’s residency because it is making you look like a lunatic.
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» on 05.24.12 @ 02:16 PM
it makes p look not only like a lunatic but a completely wrong lunatic because I do indeed live here so deal with it. What living here has do with anything in the first place escapes me—that doesn’t alter in any manner the sorry state of affairs.
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» on 05.24.12 @ 05:17 PM
Incredibly, once again, wireless and Lou Segal don’t answer the simple question… what is Greeks *total* debt, including all local debts. They want to compare an apple (California *total* debt including lots of local pension debt handled by CalPERS) to an orange (Greece’s national level debt, not including its local pension debt).
It is their nature to blame others and never put in personal effort to ferret out the difficult to get truth. So, the personal insults start, because they can only imagine bullying other people into silence, instead of actually participating in a serious discussion.
Wireless did not know who Bob Lagomarsino was, and thinks that driving west on Camino Cielo first passes the Winchester Gun Club, and then Painted Cave. He still hasn’t answered the most rudimentary question. His only defense, and lou segal’s only defense is (like an adolescent) to say this is `boring’, and being called out on that, start name-calling.
Sure California has serious problems, and you guys are the type of people who has caused it. If you cleared out for New Jersey and Texas, California would be better by 2 people. Any farm laborer who worked 12 hours a day would help this state a lot more than either of you two.
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» on 05.24.12 @ 09:04 PM
Look it up yourself p, you’re the only one who cares. What I know is if we keep going down this path we’ll end up in bigger trouble that we are. Greece is a cautionary tale.
Speaking of cautionary tales:
Brown says the deficit is $16 billion. That has gone up 70% since January. What he forgot to mention some other recent liabilities we’ve accrued:
$14 billion borrowed from the Feds to continue sending out unemployment checks.
$33 billion stolen from State Trust Funds
$10 billion owed the State government schools
Billions not paid to the pension systems
$500 billion in unfunded CalPRS liabilities
$64 billion in unfunded CalSTRS liabilities
Don’t forget to add this into your calculations vs. Greece. Have fun!
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» on 05.24.12 @ 11:29 PM
And once again, Wireless goes off on an innumerate rant… and doesn’t deliver the numbers on *GREECE’S* total debt, including prefectural and municipal debt.
It was wireless who first brought up Greece in detail, with a link to the innumerate Spectator article. If you bring it up Wireless, be prepared to make it into something actually useful.
Of course you say `no-one cares’ because you are innumerate and can’t tell the the difference between a million, billion, or trillion. You just mindlessly repost links you don’t understand and can barely read.
You don’t know who Bob Lagomarsino is. You don’t know our local road system. You aren’t even from this area. If you were ethical and honest, you’d stop your pointless posts and move to Texas or New Jersey and get happy.
Because you really want to destroy California… most likely you are paid by the Chamber of Commerces of those states or cities in those states to run down California.
It is people like you who are innumerate and opinionated who led California into this mess.
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