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Health-Care Town Hall Turns Heated and Vocal
By Giana Magnoli, Noozhawk Staff Writer | 
10 a.m. | Published on 08.24.2009
There’s no denying that, these days especially, people are passionate about the issue of health care. At a heated forum Monday night at the University Club, the loose town hall-style structure at times felt like a free for all.
In sharp contrast to a Friday forum, Monday’s event admitted only about 100 people and featured just two speakers, who each defended either support or opposition to President Barack Obama’s plans for a sweeping overhaul of the U.S. health-care system. House Resolution 3200, the American Affordable Health Choices Act, is the current vehicle for the changes.
At 1,000 pages, the intricacies of the legislation most likely are unknown to many Americans. When one downloads the full text, the government site warns that “this bill is very large, and loading it may cause your Web browser to perform sluggishly, or even freeze.”
The bill has aroused much local controversy and opinion, expressed so far during a protest outside the office of Rep. Lois Capps, D-Santa Barbara, on Aug. 13 and public forums arranged by her constituents in her absence.
Monday’s meeting was sponsored by The Vandeventer Group; founder Clark Vandeventer was the moderator. Each speaker had the opportunity to give opening and closing statements, in addition to answering and commenting on questions from the audience.
Dr. James Kahn said he supports the proposed legislation and argued that Americans have a moral responsibility to give health-insurance coverage to everyone.
As an emergency room doctor for many years, Kahn said he treated those who came to him, regardless of their insurance status. People value an educated society, and are willing to pay taxes to support the public school system — and people should value health care in the same way, he said.
On the other side, Carpinteria City Councilman Joe Armendariz said the answer to the health-care problem is more markets, more consumer-driven innovations, and empowering customers to know the costs and options available.
Armendariz, of Joe Armendariz Insurance Services, is also a trustee for the grassroots group Fair Managed Care, created to hold managed-care companies responsible for their behavior, according to its Web site.
Dozens of audience members lined up to comment and ask questions, but those who remained seated chimed in often. One man interrupted several times and refused to leave, despite people calling for his expulsion. He later was escorted out by Santa Barbara police officers, who were present throughout the event “just in case,” one organizer said.
While Vandeventer tried to moderate, comments, questions and accusations from those who were seated were called out throughout the evening, putting the speakers on the spot time and time again. Most of the applause for each opinion voiced by a speaker or audience member seemed to lean against a government overhaul, but there was plenty of applause for opinions voiced by either speaker, and there were more issues with which the speakers agreed than disagreed.
Kahn and Armendariz agreed that access to care needs to increase and costs must go down. More competition must be introduced, they agreed, and there must be tort reform and the ability to purchase health-insurance plans across state lines.
Heated debate centered on how to go about reforming the system. Each side saw a different party as the villain.
Kahn saw insurance companies as “not accountable to anyone but their bottom line and stockholders” and contributing to the broken system. A public-option plan would offer low-cost, basic-level care for those who really need it, especially the uninsured, and people could buy into the private plan of their choice at any time, he said.
Insurer policies can contribute to detrimental procedures by covering them, he said, using Caesarean sections as an example. C-sections are more expensive than a traditional birth and are used in 31 percent of births, according to the Los Angeles Times. Maternal death rates have been rising in the past few years, and the typical newborn is delivered at 39 weeks, the newspaper reported.
Armendariz said the key problem is that no market mechanism exists to empower people with information. He said a public option would bankrupt the United States. Instead, he proposed to “get government out of the way” by shifting power to consumers through increased information, individual tax-deductible insurance and free clinics “everywhere,” including “Costco, Target and Sam’s Club.”
He said he wants to avoid having a health-care system monopolized by the government — where he sees the current proposal going if passed — and said the economy is a more pressing issue for the country.
Audience members had differing opinions. Many said they experienced difficulty getting someone with pre-existing medical conditions covered under insurance plans. Others said there should be more individual responsibility, and that it was “unfair” they had to pay the same premium as those who didn’t take care of themselves.
When Kahn referred to the proposed bill and said some feared it was socialism, several audience members called out “It is!” or similar sentiments.
Dr. Andrew Bender questioned the existence of insurance through insurance, which “makes no sense” to him, and both speakers agreed. With individual insurance, employers could raise wages and lower costs, they said.
The meeting turned into a debate when Armendariz uttered the phrase “death panel.” There was some outcry, and Kahn said using the phrase was a fear tactic, and that the bill provided patients with the option of talking about their end-of-life care issues.
With 80 percent of health-care costs occurring at the end of life, both sides argued that the government or insurance companies could cut off patients before then because of rationing.
Afterward, Vandeventer said the speakers had a tough time, and that the meeting had been “no holds barred.”
“We could sit here and discuss this all night,” Vandeventer said as he hurried the speakers when time ran short.
The meeting was recorded and will be sent to Capps, in addition to personal messages some attendees recorded after the meeting.
The Vandeventer Group hosted the event “because Lois Capps is not,” Vandeventer said. The group has launched a Web site, New American Ideas, to begin a “movement of Americans beginning on California’s South Central Coast that is unified behind core principles and values that unite all Americans.”
Capps has been out of the country and Noozhawk’s calls to her office Monday were not returned. Early Tuesday, Jonathan Levenshus, a spokesman in Capps’ Washington office, e-mailed Noozhawk to say she plans to host a community forum in Santa Barbara next week. Details about the date, location and format are still being finalized, Levenshus wrote, but will be announced as soon as possible.
— Noozhawk staff writer Giana Magnoli can be reached at .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address).
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» on 08.25.09 @ 02:43 AM
While the gathering outside of Capps’s office may or may not have originated as a protest but the vast majority of people there were supportive of reform.
Capps plans to hold several meetings next month so the group hosting this event is incorrect to state she is not doing so.
I am glad to see that a doctor was present in support of reform. The majority are.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 05:03 AM
A copy of the tape was sent to Lois. Won’t that disrupt her offtime? Want to cut some expenses? Eliminate the position occupied by Lois Capps; salary, perks, travel expense, etc. She is is an empty pantsuit. Make up for her loss by giving Speaker Pelosi two votes in the House of Representatives. Lois in not interested in representing this area.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 06:00 AM
I was at the event. Dr. Kahn had no clue what the Progressives are really up to- he had no clue the real motivation is to get the Government to run every aspect of your and his life. Lois Capps is the perfect example of why gerrymandering is so harmful. The most important issue in her Congressional career, and what does she do- skip town and hide from her constituents! Where’s the school nurse when you need her? She knows how she’ll vote on a corrupt health care bill- because Pelosi told her how to vote on it! A 1.6 trillion dollar budget deficit, and Lois wants to vote for a big government takeover health care plan that adds at least another $1 trillion of debt- and we all know thats a lowball estimate- Its sad-Americans are gonna pay the price for voting these type of people into office. Gerrymandering is a form of boundary delimitation (redistricting) in which electoral district or constituency boundaries are deliberately modified for electoral advantage. Gerrymandering may be used to help or hinder particular constituents, such as members of a political, racial, linguistic, religious or class group.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 07:28 AM
From what I read and hear about this debate, the compromise bill in the Senate is the likely one to be passed by Congress. Why waste so much time talking about the House Bill if it is unlikely to be the final product?
We are already paying for health care for the poor with our high insurance premiums; it is the working middle class that are missing out. Incentives must be built into any health system for people to pay some of the cost, and to be rewarded for living a lifestyle that promotes good health. We must reform and improve our health coverage. All the hysteria is getting us nowhere, fast.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 07:35 AM
Its simply amazing that in these town hall debates, and the media coverage of them, supposedly educated citizens and public officials can discuss possible solutions to our broken health care system and yet completely avoid the real elephant in the room—how universal health care is done in other countries. When did it become impossible (or perhaps unpatriotic) to learn from other nations and cultures? Perhaps this is why the points put forth by both side of this issue seem remarkably uninformed and tone deaf. One fact is certain; America stands as the only industrialized nation to have an insurance company-run, for-profit health care “marketplace”. How is it working out so far?
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» on 08.25.09 @ 07:54 AM
Why is Lois Capps, a former nurse, MIA on this issue?
Time for us to vote in a more ‘representative’ representative.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 08:06 AM
Joe Armendariz, by bringing up the divisive, maligning and fallacious “death panel” explains much more about his own divisive personality. I’ve come to expect this type of shameful hyperbole from Armendairz.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 08:26 AM
The insurance premiums my company pays went up almost 20% this year ( over $2000 per employee). We need to reduce the ability of insurance companies to continue to rip us off, and thankfully we have a representative who is on our side, not the insurance companies side.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 08:28 AM
Here’s an unavoidable fact the Progressives either don’t understand or won’t admit- The United States is the ONLY country that develops the vast majority of new leading edge and lifesaving drugs- the other “socialized healthcare industrialized” countries simply mooch off of US R&D and pay pennies on the dollar for the true cost of these drugs. They dont develop them themselves, because their system of socialized healthcare doesn’t pay for it. So, Lois and the Progressives are essentially proposing eliminating the last remaining healthcare system on the planet that actually develops most of the new lifesaving cancer drugs because “profit” is now bad and profit is required to fund these lifesaving drug development programs. So before folks hold up the other ‘industrialized” country’s healthcare systems as a model for us, remember that their systems don’t develop the lifesaving drugs, we do- they just mooch off of our innovation. Dr. Kahn didn’t have a clue what really motivates the development of new cancer drugs. Welcome to Obamacare…
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» on 08.25.09 @ 08:41 AM
Hmm…Sounds like the socialism trolls showed up after all. I wish I could have seen that! However, for reliable information I’ll read the bill for myself.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 08:44 AM
The insurance premiums my company pays went up almost 20% this year ( over $2000 per employee). We need to reduce the ability of insurance companies to continue to rip us off, and thankfully we have a representative who is on our side, not the insurance companies side.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 08:44 AM
** There are no “death panels”- only end of life counseling to talk weak and vulnerable elder citizens into ending their lives voluntarily.
** healthcare will not be rationed ... until there are not enough doctors available to go around and not enough money to pay for it all (useless elders will suffer the first cuts)
** The public option will not be available to illegal immigrants - they just aren’t required to check for citizenship.
** If you like your current plan you can keep your current plan - only problem is, with a public option, your employer will most likely drop your current coverage because, why should they offer it when they can save money by dropping your plan and throwing you into the public option?
** the public option will reduce costs by adding competition ... WRONG it will bloat out of control with bureaucracy after eliminating competition!
** If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor - except there won’t be enough doctors and no more incentive to be one.
** Healthcare must be government run to make health care reduce costs,make it affordable and save the economy.. kinda like the bankrupt Medicare and Social Security!
**Healthcare must be government run and socialized - it’s the only way to make it affordable and reduce cost and it has to be done NOW…let’s not consider other options like tax free healthcare savings accounts, co-pays to reduce fraud and abuse, tort reform to cap malpractice awards.
** This will be efficient and lean in cost - kinda like the VA and Medicare and Medicaid and social security and the Post office and the DMV
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» on 08.25.09 @ 08:51 AM
“Dr. James Kahn said he supports the proposed legislation and argued that Americans have a moral responsibility to give health-insurance coverage to everyone.”
WE ALREADY DO! Those with insurance pay high premiums already to cover the uninsured! Why do you think we are charged $30 for a bandaid??
“As an emergency room doctor for many years, Kahn said he treated those who came to him, regardless of their insurance status.”
Then he must know that it is illegal to turn anyone away from emergency treatment! Even if they are illegal immigrants with a runny nose!
“People value an educated society, and are willing to pay taxes to support the public school system — and people should value health care in the same way, he said.”
And look what a bloated ineffective bureaucratic mess the public school system is! Why are those who can afford it leaving the system in droves and opting for private education?
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» on 08.25.09 @ 08:52 AM
This guy has common sense and a brain. I hope he moves to Santa Barbara and gives our Council clowns a run for their money.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 08:54 AM
When does Armendariz start talking again about IMAs, Ignorant Mexican Activists like he has done before?
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» on 08.25.09 @ 09:01 AM
To Steve Bonser: The reason the “elephant in the room” isn’t discussed much is that other countries’ universal health models are at the verge of imploding due to lack of funding; including US states Masachussetts and Oregon. Speaking to other industrialized nations, the US has one of the highest cancer survivor rates in the world. This is a good measure of success, not failure. I would submit that the larger elephant in the room is the fact that the government thinks it needs a “public option” to icrease competition. Wake up America, in order to increase competition the government needs to overturn interstate commerce laws banning the sale and portability of health insurance across state lines. Get rid of that legislation and you have a huge boost to compeition at no cost to the government. This will increase options and lower prices. I feel the reason many are so frustrated is the lack of common sense in these discussions and lack of complete information regarding our options to improve the system. We need to work together and get really creative. I want to help the uninsured, but the fact is we are a bankrupt nation already. The government can’t afford this program at this time.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 09:07 AM
Armendariz definitely is a cut above many of the rabid teapartiers. I think the free market has had, what, 220 years in the US to make a healthcare system that is effective. The result has been a corrupt oligarchy of insurance companies, run by guys like William McGuire, who ripped off $124 million a year and >$1 billion in stock options when he ran one of the biggest health care insurance groups in the Country, United Health Care:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_W._McGuire
The oligarchy hires scads of MBAs who design a system that gives the minimum appearance of helping you while denying you service at every turn, and then raising the cost way faster than inflation.
The free market has had 220 years and has simply failed in the case of healthcare. The same thing once happened with railroads, utilities, sewage, and interstate highways. Now is the time for all good people to come to the aid of their country and support a public healthcare plan.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 09:16 AM
Bombs Away says ‘the United States is the ONLY country that develops the vast majority of new leading edge and lifesaving drugs- the other “socialized healthcare industrialized” countries simply mooch off of US R&D and pay pennies on the dollar for the true cost of these drugs.’
If he or she is referring to pharmaceutical companies, note that 6 of the top 10 parmaceutical companies are from Europe and the US has only 11 of the top 30.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pharmaceutical_companies
Do you really believe that the US is the only country doing serious medical R&D? I often wonder how many people who are so sure that eveyone but the US is backwards and benighted have ever travelled to Europe.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 09:29 AM
Who is going to pay for all these government programs..Our children and grandchildren..this is crazy barrowing..
Vote these liberals out ..
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» on 08.25.09 @ 09:44 AM
Publius has it right - read him carefully, then do your own research: “Free enterprise” (if by that one means corporate profits on people’s health care) has been a rank failure in America. Whatever we wind up doing (and I ain’t so crazy about having only one purveyor of healthcare,either, whether it’s the government or private enterprise - I much prefer a system of nonprofit providers all competing against each other and overseen by a nonpartisan body with enforcement powers for abuse), it must be based on one principle: GET THE PROFIT OUT OF HEALTHCARE!!!
Pay doctors and nurses (especially nurses) well, but get rid of the profit motive. For those participating in future forums, focus on this! (And then do your own research about how nonprofit providers help to keep down healthcare costs among private ‘for-profit’ providers in the regions where the nonprofits are active.)
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» on 08.25.09 @ 09:55 AM
Dr Kahn was out of his league against Armendariz who is one of the best debaters there is on the local political scene. It was obvious the audience was impressed with him. I think Armendariz has too much faith in free markets but his command of this issue and his debating skills are always fun to watch.
As for the death panels I didn’t get the impression he was trying to be divisive about that. He even said he didn’t know if there were death panels or not but that real reform didn’t require $1 trillion dollars, 1000 pages or new regs, fines, fees, taxes, etc.
I was also impressed that Armendariz asked that a person who was being disrupted be allowed to stay. Unfortunately the progressives just can’t debate these issues without getting angry, nasty, loud, and petty.
I would pay money to see Joe and Lois debate.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 09:57 AM
Concerned Citizen: You are wrong that “other countries’ universal health models are at the verge of imploding due to lack of funding”. Where do you get this information? (Please be specific). Its not the “lack of common sense in these discussions and lack of complete information regarding our options to improve the system” that is missing—its people like you repeating the lies and talking points of the GOP and special interests determined to keep the status quo. Since you’re so keen on pointing out how lousy “socialized” medicine is in other countries, please name a single other nation successfully executing on the for-profit system that the U.S. is alone in embracing.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 10:07 AM
“America stands as the only industrialized nation to have an insurance company-run, for-profit health care “marketplace”. How is it working out so far?”
Since when is making a profit an evil bad thing? What do you think encourages people to excel in their field? What do you think propels research and development of life saving medical equipment and drugs? What do you think encourages doctors to spend eight or more years in intense education, Do you think Americorp or ACORN is going to do this voluntarily?? EXCELLENCE REQUIRES THE MOTIVATION AND INCENTIVE OF PROFIT AND THOSE WHO WORK HARD TO GET IT WELL DESERVE IT!! YOU TAKE THIS ALL FOR GRANTED. WHY DO YOU THINK AMERICA IS THE GREATEST COUNTRY ON EARTH WITH THE WHOLE WORLD KNOCKING DOWN OUR FENCES TO GET HERE?? WHY ARE THEY COMING HERE TO HAVE SPECIALIZED MEDICAL TREATMENT THAT THEY CAN NOT get in their countries?? IT’S A DIRTY LITTLE SECRET CALLED CAPITALISM AND IT IS WORKING JUST GREAT, thank you!
When did it become impossible (or perhaps unpatriotic) to learn from other nations and cultures? WE HAVE, AND WE WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!! WHY DON’T YOU LEAVE AND GO TO THESE OTHER COUNTRIES THAT YOU WORSHIP AND SEE HOW YOU LIKE IT? STOP HATING AMERICA OR GET THE HE&& OUT!
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» on 08.25.09 @ 10:08 AM
Especially love the contributor who thinks Massachussetts and Oregon are “other countries.” the former, a state, bowed to the lobbyists and created a system that keeps insurance companies running the show. No surprise it’s in financial trouble. Canada could increase it’s spending from 6% to 8% of GDP and solve all it’s healthcare problems. As it is, liberals and conservatives alike in that country agree the national health care program is a must. In the U.S. we spend 16% of GDP and the price is rising. For what? To keep 46 million residents uninsured altogether and the rest at risk of losing coverage, much of it shoddy to begin with?
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» on 08.25.09 @ 10:16 AM
Capps is out of the country?? Doing what? Isn’t the recess the time to come home and talk to your constituents?? What a coward. She has had it too easy or too long. Not an original idea out of her EVER, just parroting the party line as dictated by Obama, Pelosi and Reid. A former nurse completely absent on the issue of healthcare - shameful.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 10:19 AM
Vote Justin Tevis for City Council.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 10:25 AM
Hmmm. Doc says that Lois is planning meetings. What is your information source? I see no objective, or subjective evidence that she is going to come out of hiding.
I have been in contact with her office and was assured that I am on the list to be notified as soon as information about meetings is available. Was this a true promise, or has she set up her offices as a firewall to protect her from opinions other than her own?
Her status of Missing in Action is distressing. I assume that she is tired of public office and will not run again. I suggest that she do a Palin and resign to let someone interested in her job to have it now.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 10:28 AM
Dr. Kahn’s repeated “I’m not aware of that in the bill” was offensive. Agree, Kahn is a pawn. And he’s uninformed. We should not accept anyone’s word for anything when they freely admit their ignorance. Thanks to the other doctor present for standing up and setting Dr. Kahn straight on several key issues. This bill (or bills for heaven sakes—take your pick—and read them please!) are NOT reform. They are government grabs for more of your money for LESS care. Most INFORMED legislators agree: Start over and try again! Most agenda-driven legislators say “hurry up and pass it before Obama’s honeymoon is over.” News flash, I’m out of love.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 10:32 AM
You are obviously an angry person or at least become enraged when posting comments on websites. Also, I think your CAPS key is stuck. If you’d like to meet me for a cup of coffee and discuss this issue like an intelligent adult (and agree to not fall back on the tired “You must hate America and therefore must move away” nonsense that does nothing but discredit your argument), I’d be delighted to do so. Either way, I wish you well.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 10:33 AM
To Steve B: you missed it! At the meeting last night, this cute little 20-something young woman gets up at the very end and blew it out of the water. She asked why we are even debating this issue when so many other countries have tried and tested this same type of healthcare system in the past and failed. She literally said, “they’re all laughing at us,” and the room exploded in a roar of support. She’s got it right, though. Why aren’t we taking a note from other countries’ past failures? I’m embarrassed that we have people at the top who are even considering this type of healthcare reform. We are headed for bankruptcy if this bill is passed…no doubt about it!
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» on 08.25.09 @ 10:45 AM
The hypocrisy of conservative thinking about this reform astounds me: On the one hand their major proposal is that increased market competition along with increasing the pool of people supported will naturally drive down the cost of insurance (of course nothing is mentioned of the tendency for costs to then naturally increase over time)and over time cover more people. Yet they instantaneously spew accusations of socialist takeovers when a government option is proposed and ignore the fact that a government option would both increase market competition and increase the pool of people supported. Ironically, both of the conservative talking points for driving down market prices are accomplished by a government OPTION, yet all we get in response is fear mongering and false accusations that draw on inexcusable and shameless allegories to Nazi Germany.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 10:50 AM
Our electric utilities are not a free market system. Santa Barbara itself had a wild era of monopolies and oligopolies controlling its water and jacking prices up. The interstate highways are not a free market system. Water supply is not a free market system.
We do not have unregulated capitalism in this country. If you want to have unregulated capitalism feel free to emigrate to Russia or Somalia.
In the case of healthcare, guys like William McGuire get paid $124 million/year and get >$1 billion in stock options to deny you health care. We get 1/2 the healthcare for twice the cost compared to other countries. And yes, I definitely foresee getting some healthcare done by flying to Paris or Madrid or Toronto and paying 1/2 the price for a better job.
Lots of people already get prescription medicine from Canada at a much reduced price.
Unregulated capitalism has failed with respect to healthcare. This is not the first time such an event has happened in US history… the great depression was caused by underregulated speculation.
Also, the $23.7 trillion of taxpayers’ money that George W. Bush and his administration have forked over to their buddies at Goldman Sachs etc for $20 million bonuses per year is the result of unregulated capitalism running amok.
Let’s solve the problem and get a sensible public healthcare system.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 10:56 AM
“I much prefer a system of nonprofit providers all competing against each other”
WHY COMPETE WHEN THERE IS NO PROFIT TO COMPETE FOR?? This is exactly why socialism fails - take away the incentive for people to produce and the motivation for them to excel and they get complacent and lazy and dependent on the government for everything..then the government exploits them and freedom and liberty are gone - it has been proven time and time again, and we still do not learn.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 11:00 AM
American Affordable Health Choices Act - I love when even the TITLE of the Act is a lie. Since has government involvement ever made anything affordable?? Choices?? This is all about limiting your choices to just one. American?? Socialism is the furthest thing possible from American.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 11:03 AM
And tell us that America does not have the best healthcare system in the world and the most generous caring surgeons?
Why? Because of profit!
http://www.noozhawk.com/nonprofits/article/092409_see_international
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» on 08.25.09 @ 11:19 AM
Also missing in this debate is HOW ARE YOU GOING TO PAY FOR IT! Every other industrialized country with government run health care systems not only mooches off our R&D but also our defense system. In the name of world stability and peace we have become the largest defense contractor on the planet. How long do you num nuts who favor a $2 trillion government takeover of healthcare, think Europe would last if it had to do its own research and defense? Keep in mind their healthcare systems are already bankrupting their economies.
Bottom line is it ain’t free. You have to pay for it no matter who provides it. So, who is $11.7 trillion in debt right now, the insurance industry or the federal government? Which institutions always say it will cost X and then end up spending 1000X, insurance or the federal government? I will agree that the insurance industry needs oversight and regulation, but who oversees the federal government?
Healthcare is a service and as such does not “create” wealth, it consumes it. Our country stopped being a net wealth producer and became a net consumer of wealth some time ago. Our combined public and private debt is near $100 trillion, that’s some borrowing spree! And now you progressives, liberals and leftists want to add more on top, why? You cannot pay for what you want now and no even if you take all the money from the top 5% of the population and spread it around it still won’t put a dent in it. Someone naively suggested Canada increase its healthcare from 6% to 8% of their GDP. Uh excuse me, but where does that money come from you dolt!
The unmitigated ignorance of our population on the very basics of economics is what allows the liars, cheats and thieves in government to continue to spend, spend, spend without any consideration as to the damage it does. We in the private sector are now paying for 50 years of borrowing to keep up our life styles while allowing all our wealth generation to be done by OPEC and Asia (mostly China). You lefties always want government to do more and more without ever considering the cost. You white elitist liberals think that just because your trust fund is paying for your extravagant life that somehow money grows on trees. The so called obscene profit the insurance industry supposedly rakes in provides one of the largest investment pools in the world. And what industry benefits from that investment cash? That’s right geniuses, medical research. They took the “profit motive” out of Europe’s healthcare industry and now there is little research and little motivation for expanding that industry. You progressives can hate capitalism all you want, but it pays the bills and gets stuff done and generates more wealth for more people than any other system ever devised by the human race. Unfortunately its greatest enemy is us.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 12:10 PM
Government produces competition??? (as in the much-vaunted Public Option.) Government is efficient???
I’m laughing out loud.
Yesterday an LA TIMES headline read “Dealers Get Rough Ride in Cash-For-Clunkers Program” - Red tape and computer gliches mar the program…
Yesterday I go to the IRS to get a form I can’t get online or from my tax preparer - I’m told it will take ALL AFTERNOON to get one form.
Physicians EAT costs when Medicare fails to reimburse them, many STOP treating Medicare patients (but this is our government in action, right?)
IF GOVERNMENT CAN’T FUND MEDICARE, HOW THE HELL CAN IT FUND A PUBLIC OPTION??? We do need reform (we need more accountability from patients, and more HSAs which encourage skin in the game financially). The last thing we need is this RUSH RUSH RUSH travesty of a bill/bills.
BEEN THERE DONE THAT WITH TWO “STIMULUS” BILLS…
Today’s headlines read:
Federal budget numbers now stratospheric
(Associated Press) – 39 minutes ago
White House Sharply Increases Deficit Projection to $1.6 Trillion - Washington Post
Yeah, I’m feeling confident the “Gov” knows what it’s doing…
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» on 08.25.09 @ 01:40 PM
As the woman at the end of the meeting stated, why are we not looking at other countries who have tried this and failed? Having traveled to a Latin American country with government health care, I saw the lines of people waiting to be seen by a doctor. The lines were out the door with people bleeding, vomiting and groaning. Is this what we want the US to turn into? Everyone who can afford private health care in these other counties, does. It is very true that the people of other countries are laughing at us. They have seen that it does not work, why can’t we learn from their mistakes?
On another note, why would the government think that the health care bill is good for the country, when they don’t want to be placed under government health insurance? That just baffles me.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 01:52 PM
And did that $124 million a year with >$1 billion in stock options create any new wealth when William McGuire of United Health Care got it?
The point is we can make healthcare 4 times as efficient by getting the scoundrels like McGuire out of the system, and refocusing the system on efficient effective delivery, using latest techniques developed in Iraq battlefront care and other efficiency-improvements that are actually straightforward. Sad to say free enterprise has gone the way of the California railroad monopolies and jacked up prices with no services.
If we could be as efficient as Switzerland or Canada or the UK we’d have no trouble at all paying for health care… we’d easily insure the uninsured and *STILL SAVE MONEY*.
Suppose a 25 year old oil rig operator cannot get proper health care; he’ll die and his expertise will not produce new oil subsequently. Health care is by no means a pure `service’ but is clearly a source of true economic enrichment in such a case.
So after we’ve gotten the cost per healthcare service down the 1/4 of what it is currently in the US, I’ve no doubt that the healthcare will create more wealth in a net sense. Additionally the burden of employers having to worry about healthcare as a job-related benefit can be reduced, making all of business more productive.
Not long ago GM was complaining that the cost of healthcare for its current employees and retirees, and pointing out that cost as one reason Japan’s car manufacturers had an advantage.
Getting rid of the oligopolistic scoundrels who demand $124 million/year salaries and making our health care system more efficient will help EVERYONE. It is a sad indictment of our free market system that we couldn’t get healthcare right, particularly after the Clinton push in 1993… at least the companies could have taken the intervening 16 years to fix themselves up. That they didn’t means the pretty cruddy option of a government takeover looks better than scoundrels like William McGuire.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 02:37 PM
So, the disinformation MUST continue because, well in America we mprefer to reply on anecdotal horror stories of how terrible other countries are rather than facts. Yes, the young lady was right that most other countries are laughing at us while debate health care, but for a different reason. The British, French, Germans, Canadians, Australians, Dutch, Italians, etc. may complain from time to time about their governments and health care, but they certainly wouldn’t want to trade it for what we have. Instead of this silly tempest in a tea party (sorry for the pun you teabaggers), why not insist our government, media, special interest groups and other interested parties actually STUDY the experience of other countries? Here’s a good place to start: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/21/AR2009082101778.html
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» on 08.25.09 @ 03:07 PM
Way to go Vandeventer! Goo article and focus on Healthcare debate.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 03:19 PM
DAMN RIGHT I’M AN ANGRY PERSON WHEN MY COUNTRY IS HIJACKED AND GUTTED ! COFFEE? IS THAT KIND OF LIKE HAVING A BEER WITH OBAMA AND ACCOMPLISHING NOTHING? NO THANKS! I AM AN ADULT AND I BET I’M OLDER THAN YOU BECAUSE YOU SEEM TO HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT THE PRINCIPLES THIS COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED ON! ARE ADULTS NOT SUPPOSED TO GET ANGRY WHEN THERE IS SOMETHING PRICELESS BEING STOLEN BEFORE THEIR EYES? FREEDOM FROM A CONTROLLING MANIPULATIVE DECEIPTFUL GOVERMENT? I HAVE NEWS FOR YOU, THIS COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED ON ANGER!! WHY DO YOU THINK IT TOOK A WAR? THERE IS NOT ENOUGH ANGER ANY MORE!! WHY DO YOU WANT MY REAL NAME, SO YOU CAN REPORT ME TO FLAG@ WHITEHOUSE.GOV FOR OPPOSING THE PRESIDENT??
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» on 08.25.09 @ 03:35 PM
For anyone interested, here’s a university study on the U.S. health care system. It is somewhat out of date (2001) but things are probably “worse” if anything. How unbiased is it? Did they have an agenda? Are they raving socialists? I don’t know, so read it for yourself and make of it what you will.
http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S. HCweb.pdf
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» on 08.25.09 @ 04:11 PM
Oh Stevie, why don’t you cite a non-partisan rag for your diatribe? I’ll admit that some countries offer more variety for their constituents, some better rates but none offer what Obama care does and that is the rub. Also M.I.A. is the financial meltdown many of these countries are experiencing as healthcare needs swamp their GDP’s ability to pay for it. You and Publius can have all the healthcare you want when you demonstrate the underlying economy to support it. Stealing an execs compensation will not cover the tab nor will stealing the top 5% in this country’s compensation packages. As obscene and outrageous executive compensation is in this country, it is not what is driving costs through the roof. What is, is the same thing tanking all healthcare systems (except for a few small countries that do not scale up) and that is a shortage of doctors and medical staff and facilities. And that my commie, Daily Koz reading, Al Gore loving, left wing zealots, costs a lot of freaking money, more than we have and more than our feeble ponzi scheme economy that you knuckle heads gutted for your lavish environmental socialism can produce. You nit wits can have all the conscience vacuuming, feel good crap you want when you start doing work that pays for it. When those container ships are full of stuff you built being sold to other countries rather than the other way around then you can lobby for more wealth consuming services. Got it YET? Do I need to distill it down into ever more simple terms for you? WE ARE BROKE, wealth to pay for you crap does not come from a PRINTING PRESS, and no one will LOAN US ANY MORE MONEY, is that simple enough for dim wits? Good freaking grief! Didn’t your parents teach you the value of earning what you spend or don’t buy stuff unless you have the money? Our 50 year experiment with borrowing our way to a better life ENDED last summer. You want a better life, now you will have to pay REAL money for it.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 04:20 PM
will this be available on dvd? will there be additional debates between the two debaters?
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» on 08.25.09 @ 04:45 PM
Yeah, we’re broke because George W Bush and Henry Paulson gutted the financial system to pay their buddies $20 million bonuses at a total cost to the US taxpayer of $23.7 trillion dollars. And their buddies shipped all the jobs overseas because the mostly the republicans (and also some democrats) only care about the bottom line and not the horrific labor conditions and pollution in China, not to mention forced abortion in China, and so the republicans support the shipping of jobs to China.
I’ve not once heard a republican argue to keep jobs in this country, other than Pat Buchanan. All the Henry Paulsons laugh at him.
The George W. Bush set loves paying the William McGuires and others at United Health and other companies $124 million/year +$1 billion bonuses. That is why healthcare is so expensive… the free marketeers have delivered 1/2 the healthcare for twice the cost of the rest of the world.
Government management is bad, it just happens to be the least bad of the remaining options for US healthcare. The free marketeers had their chance and they blew it, particularly between the 1993 Clinton debacle and now.
Our country can easily afford $3000/year/person for healthcare. Heck, the George W Bush bailout of AIG, Goldman Sachs, etc would pay for *24 years of healthcare*. If the Repubs can bail out their country club shower buddies for $23.7 trillion, we can do health care, easily.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 05:04 PM
For once I have to agree with Bill Kristol, the conservative pundit who has been wrong so often over the years (Bush, Iraq, McCain, Palin, etc.) he’s more reliable than Old Faithful. On the Daily Show he recently opined, “Americas don’t deserve health care.” He’s right. But he should have added, “Because you’re all too stupid to implement it, administer it or appreciate it.”
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» on 08.25.09 @ 05:18 PM
Was this country really FOUNDED ON ANGER? Or was it more founded on an ENORMOUS OVERUSE OF THE CAPS LOCK FUNCTION?
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» on 08.25.09 @ 05:50 PM
I guess the next time any of you liberals who call us tea-baggers end up the ER with a heart attack you’re going to blame it all on Bush. Don’t you think that’s getting a little OLD? Are today’s headlines about a gargantuan and growing deficit Bush’s fault? Are the enormous amounts of cost-shifting happening in healthcare Bush’s fault. No, mostly they’re the fault of entitlement spending… which I must say I have hard time linking to tea bags…
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» on 08.25.09 @ 08:37 PM
The US… 37th in quality of health care. We can do better!!!!!!
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» on 08.25.09 @ 09:01 PM
Here is a news source that does not have a liberal leaning http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125029944780633687.html
From reading people’s comments, it looks like a number of people need to set their emotions aside and debate like thinking people.
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» on 08.25.09 @ 10:34 PM
Just look at welfare, and how many millions of lives have been destroyed..No accountability-Drugs, gangs, No father, paid for unwanted children,Black stigma, crime, lazy, shifty—-Welfare—the biggest Liberal problem America has ever created..and it goes on??????????
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» on 08.26.09 @ 06:39 AM
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care
is another good one. If Physicians in the US would just wash their hands more systematically, 100,000 lives/year would be saved.
Although the author of that article is a Dem, he does not support single payer or even a public option. Very interesting article.
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» on 08.26.09 @ 11:19 AM
No one can say how you pay. You can have whatever you want when you make the money to support it. The rest of these arguments are superfluous. It doesn’t matter what the rest of the world does either. They can’t pay any better than we can right now. Get a clue folks, we are broke. We have been that way ever since we became a debtor nation (we borrow more than we make). Is that reasonable enough for you flabbergasted readers out there? There is so much economic pie to go around. Healthcare is sucking 15 to 20% of that pie, one of the highest. It’s not insurance rates driving that its supply and demand. As the babyboomer population rolls into the high maintenance old age phase the cost of medical care will continue to skyrocket. No amount of socialism or government control can stop that except by rationing both quantity and quality of care, period. You have no argument to that because it is not a partisan or political statement. It is straight economics. Yes we should do whatever we can to trim inefficiency, waste and fraud. We should hold insurance companies accountable for their actions and reform tort law so that the whole industry is not held hostage by lawyers. That will save money, but it won’t be enough to pay for the skyrocketing demand. To accomplish that you need to have an economy that produces enough surplus wealth to pay for it without screwing your ability to make that wealth. None of what I wrote here is the least bit partisan. I never said “don’t cover” or “screw socialism”, so you partisan hacks out there can just shut up for a change. Its straight economics folks. You cannot have what you want if you don’t have the money and right now you not only don’t have it you owe the rest of the world some $100 trillion in debt. Cry, scream, moan, complain and blame all you want, it won’t change a frickin thing, yer still flat broke. Now get yer worthless carcasses back to work!
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» on 08.26.09 @ 02:06 PM
Any nation populated by enough people incapable of making rational, informed decisions based on facts, free of political rhetoric, is doomed to fail.
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» on 08.26.09 @ 06:31 PM
An50, It is true you need to pay for it. However, your statement that it is not the rising cost of insurance but supply and demand is way off base. Do some homework and look at the insurance company’s financials. It is very clear that their margins continue to expand, their payout ratios decline,, their denial rates increase and the executive compensation rises. The actual cost of practicing medicine and providing healthcare has gone up at about 3% per year for the past several years while insurance premiums have gone up nearly 20% per year. I hear the giant sucking sound that is deflating our economy and our competitiveness and it is coming from the insurance companies. Employer provided health insurance is a dying strategy. It takes away our individual freedom. If one has a job that has health insurance their freedom to leave is sacked by the fear of having no insurance or being dropped due to an preexisting condition. I am tired of reading about all of the BS regarding this subject. It is time to do the right thing. BASIC health insurance is a right for any legal resident, not a privelege. If the public option or single payer is so bad how come it is working so well in every other major industrialized country? Why do we not get a real panel of citizens from other countries and ask them directly about their healthcare? The reason is they would go on and on about how much they like it and then the right wing nuts would not be able to lie and try to scare everyone in this country about what goes on in Canada, France etc. and how death panels and books are coming.
You can pay for it by tort reform, reducing medicare fraud, increasing copays for the wealthy, reversing the Bush tax cuts on the wealthy, taxing soft drinks a few cents, enforcing immigration laws, allowing medicare to negotiate drug prices and having incentives for weight reduction and preventive medicine and having employers that do not provide insurance contribute. Done and paid for.
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» on 08.26.09 @ 06:48 PM
“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money. ”
— Margaret Thatcher
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» on 08.26.09 @ 11:57 PM
The lawyers have free rain to destroy business, and doctors.. They are are biggest problem in the U.S—bottom feeders who have paid off Obama-and all of our leaders. Put them in their place..You sue, you lose, you pay—that will put a stop to this quickly..
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» on 08.27.09 @ 10:28 PM
Both Winston Churchill and Margaret Thatcher supported the United Kingdom’s National Health Service, which US conservatives deride as socialized medicine.
Churchill and Thatcher were very conservative Prime Ministers of the UK.
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» on 08.28.09 @ 08:27 AM
Local, we’ve been through this a dozen times already. I have said repeatedly that the insurance industry needs to be regulated, if for no other reason, just to force them to provide the service their premium payers paid for. I have also stated repeatedly that you need to reform tort law and allow inter state transfer of insurance. All of that would save rate payers a lot of money, at first. But what you, Publius and Allen still fail to grasp in your thoroughly leftist indoctrination is how are you going to pay for expansion to cover more people? The numbers don’t pencil out and what ever savings you glean through regulation will be eaten up in a hurry by more services having to be supplied and that’s with out providing additional coverage to those uninsured. There is a reason why health care is rationed, not only in other countries but here as well. There simply is not enough care supply for the demand, period. Spin all you want but that is the case. Care expansion, not coverage expansion, is might damned expensive and has a net negative impact on any economy, state run or private. The European socialist you lefties love to admire understand that, the xenophobic Japanese understand that and even the communist Chinese understand that. Why can’t you laughing stocks of the world get it? You have to make enough money in your economy to justify the level of service you want; you can’t just keep borrowing it. The lefties who drafted the current bills being debated had one thing in mind, government control, what ever the cost. The people are telling them no, you can’t afford it and we don’t want it.
When you folks get over your life long commitment to hatred of wealth creation (not wealthy created), and understand that the best and most permanent path to more service and benefits to more people is an economy generating more wealth then we can have a discussion about health care until then it really is moot.
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» on 08.28.09 @ 04:43 PM
Need I say more?
“…We all know that when the government is setting the rules and is backed by tax dollars, it will destroy, not compete with, the private sector,” said Price, a doctor. “The reality is, whether or not you get to keep your plan, or your doctor, is very much in question under the president’s proposal.”
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» on 08.30.09 @ 01:20 PM
One of the more interesting things I found about the meeting is how Clark Vandeventer opened it up. From his opening remarks, it was clear he was attempting to make political points by taking a swipe at Congressperson Lois Capps. He faulted Capps for not having held any town hall meetings to-date (some in the audience applauded at that point). The meeting notice at Vandeventer’s website made pains to point this out as well.
However, well before this meeting, Capps’ office had already stated publicly their intentions to hold meetings in September:
An oversight on Vandeneventer’s part? Or dirty politics? Proper behaviour for a moderator? Or insight into a biased player?
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» on 08.30.09 @ 08:39 PM
CountyBowl, I was there and I heard Clark Vandeventer speak. I heard him call out Capps for being nowhere to be found on this debate, but he also said from the podium that her office had said she would do town halls at some later date. He gave her credit for this. But where is she now? Why’s she holding out on us? It’s been almost a week since this townhall and I still don’t think Congresswoman Capps has committed to a date.
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» on 08.30.09 @ 10:40 PM
But where is she now? Why’s she holding out on us? It’s been almost a week since this townhall and I still don’t think Congresswoman Capps has committed to a date.
___ Frustrated ___
Frustrated, Capps’ office said they’d have meetings in September. Last I checked, this was still August! How is that “holding out”? By your logic, Vandeventer was a hold out too ... after all, many didn’t find out about *his* meeting until it was announced in the papers a week or so before the event.
I would not blame Capps’ staff for taking their time and being very careful about this. This appears to be a hot button topic, and there appears to be organized rabble rousers (to wit, those that were paid to attend some meetings).
A general observation and one not directed at Frustrated ... Its interesting how people are commenting on this issue so irrationally with emotional, insulting, and sometimes illogical or false statements. Let’s use our brains and have a civil and rational debate! Because (most) people can’t be that stupid, one suspects treachery.
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» on 08.31.09 @ 01:44 PM
The US pays twice as much as other advanced nations, and gets have the healthcare compared to other advanced nations.
Seems to me we could cut out 3/4 of the cost and not have to ration at all, and end up with the same healthcare we have now. And then if we increase service, we can end up with way better healthcare at a lower cost than we pay now, without rationing.
It obviously pencils out that we can get way better healthcare for a lower cost than we get now. The problem is the William McGuires and other execs who demand $124 million/year salary by delivering cruddy healthcare for their plutocratish salary.
Gosh, in Japan, no rationing, and very little wait to see your doctor. They pay 1/2 what we pay and live longer, even though they smoke like crazy.
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» on 08.31.09 @ 11:07 PM
We the people of Santa Barbara deserve better that to have only 1 town hall meeting from Lois. This is an extremely important issue to every American…. Yes, of course we need reform - but one that will help ALL of us. AND as of today - doctors are opposing this house bill more and more each day. The majority of doctors are now in opposition. The issue with Lois Capps is she forgot she works of us…. She is a public servant!
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» on 09.01.09 @ 01:07 PM
The reason Lois Capps wants to wait until September to hold any town hall meeting or even make herself available to comment on the healthcare reform bill that she herself contributed to, is that she, like the Prez and his flock, want to wait until the very last minute to talk about the many issues with this bill. Obama wants to bill pushed through by Sept 15th!! Wow, a whole two weeks to clarify before it’s pushed through. The constituents will have zero time to consider what our Congresspeople are communicating to us, let alone have time to ask additional questions. It’s a dirty game, my friends. Shady!
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